Join us as we vibe with our guest, Batzdu, an exceptional artist who has earned a name by merging design with the playful world of memes. As we traverse through Batzdu's artistic journey, we touch on many fascinating topics, including the influence of space in art, the shear power of constraints in boosting creativity, and the noteworthy role memes play in our society.
In the heart of our conversation, we dive into personal narratives and the inspirations shaping us. A focal point is our discussion around ACK's iconic yellow piano artwork, along with a delightful recollection of an unconventional drawing teacher's profound impact on our creative approach. Unearthing the evolution of digital art, the rising sphere of NFTs, and the significant ripple effect of internet culture and gaming on artistic expression, we present a vivid tapestry of creativity and learning.
In this spirited dialogue, we explore an array of subjects from the effects of markets on artistic expectations to the potential of generative art, and the power of a supportive community in the NFT world. As we conclude, we express our gratitude to supportive spouses who fuel artistic inspiration and offer a window into the world of NFT creators. Strap in for an enlightening journey through art, design, memes, gaming, and much more!
Batzdu links:
LInktree: https://linktr.ee/batzdu
X(Twitter): https://x.com/batzdu
SuperRare: https://superrare.com/batz
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
Join us as we vibe with our guest, Batzdu, an exceptional artist who has earned a name by merging design with the playful world of memes. As we traverse through Batzdu's artistic journey, we touch on many fascinating topics, including the influence of space in art, the shear power of constraints in boosting creativity, and the noteworthy role memes play in our society.
In the heart of our conversation, we dive into personal narratives and the inspirations shaping us. A focal point is our discussion around ACK's iconic yellow piano artwork, along with a delightful recollection of an unconventional drawing teacher's profound impact on our creative approach. Unearthing the evolution of digital art, the rising sphere of NFTs, and the significant ripple effect of internet culture and gaming on artistic expression, we present a vivid tapestry of creativity and learning.
In this spirited dialogue, we explore an array of subjects from the effects of markets on artistic expectations to the potential of generative art, and the power of a supportive community in the NFT world. As we conclude, we express our gratitude to supportive spouses who fuel artistic inspiration and offer a window into the world of NFT creators. Strap in for an enlightening journey through art, design, memes, gaming, and much more!
Batzdu links:
LInktree: https://linktr.ee/batzdu
X(Twitter): https://x.com/batzdu
SuperRare: https://superrare.com/batz
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
GM. This is Boone and you're listening to the Schiller Curated Podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with Batsu, a designer by trade and an artist who has created the unique style of modern memeism. In this episode, we discuss many topics, such as the role of space and an artwork, the power of constraints and creativity, the monumental impact memes have on culture, and much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guests may own NFTs discussed. Now it's time to grab some coffee and dive into this conversation with Batsu. Yeah, dude, we like a little countdown Makes it feel like an official studio, but I just want to say a big GM, batsu, how are you man?
Speaker 2:Massive GM to you. I'm good, I'm doing good. Just, you know, out here doing the thing Can't complain. You know, just got off of, just got done with Halloween.
Speaker 2:It was my son's first Halloween and he's he's like, yeah, he's, he's almost seven months now, but so obviously he wasn't able to, like you know, walk and actually trick or treat, but we got to spend some time with family and it was just, yeah, it was awesome. It was like one of my favorite moments so far, so far as a parent. To be honest, just to like I don't know Like you remember the joy of going to do that as a kid or you know, I don't know, yeah, and getting to like see that happen all over again. You're almost like living vicariously through them. It was just, it was just so much fun. I can't wait till he hopefully next year. You know he's running around in a I don't know Elmo costume or whatever he's, whatever he's into next year. But yeah, just kind of, you know, coming off of Halloween and holiday season's kind of coming up too, it's, you know, part of the year.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I love it, man. Well, that dude that sounds, that sounds incredible and I'm so happy for you. Like, I feel, like I'm at this age where it's like Halloween for me is not, is not what it used to be, you know, like, cause you get a little older, you're like, like, I'm kind of an introvert, but I'm kind of not like, but I just I don't want to do all that man, yeah, yeah, yeah, so it's really cool.
Speaker 1:You and another friend, tyler, who I sent a lot of deals with like it was his. It was his kids first Halloween as well, so it was I'm not sure it was first, it was. It was a very like early, early stage Halloween, so it was really dope man. But, yeah, dude, happy to have you here, man, kind of coming off as well. Like my Halloween celebrations were like I bought three King size Reese's packs and watched a horror movie each night.
Speaker 2:You know sounds incredible. Yeah, what horror movie did you watch?
Speaker 1:So I watched the none part one and two.
Speaker 2:Oh, how I always see the I did. I always see the ads for how, how, how were they?
Speaker 1:So, you know, I'll be honest, I liked the none part one better. Like the second one. I was like I don't really know, I think I missed part of the story, like I feel like there was a key piece that, like, I missed at the end because the ending just didn't feel as complete. But I think it's one of those ones and you know, like and this probably might segue into something really fun but you know, when it comes to storytelling, I can really appreciate when a movie or a show like intentionally ends it, even though they could go further. You know like, yeah, I like, I like it when the ending makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's a good bow, it's a good like tie off to like this was a story that was supposed to be told and anything more like it would be kind of cool, but it wouldn't be as potent, you know, and so I feel like they could have really stopped at the first none and it would have been great. But I know they're teaming up even a third one and it's like come on, guys, like yeah, dollar signs, you know they're like oh, we got a, let's let's.
Speaker 2:You know, let's bulk it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude.
Speaker 2:Well, let's make another one.
Speaker 1:I fucking hate it, man, but I finished it off because I think it actually fucked with my sleep a little bit. You know, as much as I like I usually I used to watch like American Horror Story before I went to bed and it was always fine when I woke up. But this one I think it fucked with my sleep a little bit, and so the last last night, on Halloween night, I watched scary movie three again.
Speaker 2:So that's perfect, that's perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So on the same beat on the same beat.
Speaker 1:It was fun to go back and like re listen to that one or re watch that one man.
Speaker 2:But yeah, dude that. That, oh my gosh. That brings me back Like I don't know if that came out in high school whenever I was. I can't remember when that came out, but I, david, I was. I loved those movies. So much fun to watch with my brothers.
Speaker 1:Oh man they're, they're incredible, like it's. It's just such dorky, like it's just dorky off the cuff humor you know. And especially like it's often really interesting to go back and watch movies from then. You're just like imagine if that aired today. How, how, like obliterated they would get.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, you just watch it. Some of the it's over for them. Yeah, it would be over, yeah they're done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're just like that. Just wouldn't fly today at all. So it was good man, it was good. It was good, like you know, like very similar to you though man, like I like, like holiday season is my favorite, it's just, there's just excuses to be happy. You know, in my opinion, like you know, it kind of sucks that we as human, like as humans, need an excuse to be happy at times.
Speaker 2:but it feels like where the world really comes together, you know, yeah, yeah, it's the best time with family and you know, just like I don't know, it's dependent on where you are. I guess it's like really cozy to just like cooler weather, fire in the fireplace, holiday season, whatever you know. Movie of choices, yeah, you can't beat it.
Speaker 1:Totally dude. Yeah, I'm a big fan of like I'm in Texas, you know. So like naturally we only have two seasons, just summer and winter, and like we have like the idea of spring and fall, you know they're like these afterthoughts. You know that happen if we're lucky. But I, you know, as much as I love Texas like I just love comfy clothes, and winter gives me an excuse to wear all the comfy clothes and is my absolute favorite.
Speaker 2:Yes, dude, hoodie season, you can't beat it, it's the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like oh man, you're gonna make me dress more cozy all day, like fuck man yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean like let's, let's be real. Like why do you? Why does everybody think that a hoodie punks are at such a premium? Like it's very obvious.
Speaker 1:Totally, man, totally yeah, I agree, man, I agree, dude yeah, and I do. So let me add do you have any punks? I?
Speaker 2:don't, but I will say the. Well, it's funny. Whenever I, whenever I met Fungi in Charleston at the punks event, like the, our first, like first things that we said to each other, he said he hops on the bus and he's like, he sits down next to me and he's like.
Speaker 1:Are you a punk owner? And?
Speaker 2:I'm like. My response to that was no, I'm not a punk owner. But I know that one of you are going to try to convince me to buy one by the end of this trip and I will probably end up cave in. But, which was a great introduction to Fungi, but I know I'm still not a punk owner. I think it's definitely on my radar, I don't, you know? Just like one of those things too, once I feel like the right one comes up, I will snatch it up in a heartbeat.
Speaker 2:But the, the punk owners made sure to, you know, push it a lot. Like, when are you going to get a punk? Like, all right, and you know I get, I get home from the trip and everything like that. And I got DMs that are like hey, this one's for sale. Like, hey, take a look at this new one that's listed. It's only, you know, I really like to like y'all, chill out, I'll, I'll look, I'll find one. I would, man, I would love to get a hoodie punk. That was going to be my next question. Yeah, those are. You know they're, they're quite a bit, but God, I mean they're, they're icons, they're the. In my opinion, they're my favorite, I think you know, if I were to ever get one, that that's what I would be shooting for. So who knows?
Speaker 1:stay tuned, stay tuned. You never know. Like you know, you never know what can happen. Like you also picking up that yellow piano by ace to K, that was. That was incredible dude.
Speaker 2:That was gosh. I, you know I, that was a really really like surreal moment for me. To that I just, you know, I've been, I've been falling for such a long time and just have such an admiration for his work and, totally honestly, just like him as a human too, I just man, I just think he's great. And so whenever, you know, whenever pianos were, he was, he was teasing all of them and Sharon, I'm on, he showed serendipity and I was just like I have to go for that, like I, it was. Immediately I saw it and I was like God, this is just, this is it. And I, I even, you know, because it's it was a pro, it's been my largest art acquisition and so I made sure to you know, of course I'm going to talk with my wife about it, right?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, you have to yeah.
Speaker 2:Text-to-Balance is kind of kind of thing, and she was, and she also just like absolutely loved it out of the whole entire, out of the whole entire set. That was her favorite as well. So, you know, once we kind of talked about it, I was like that's it, like I'm not, I'm not holding back, I don't care how much somebody pushes me Like I'm going to get this, it's a, it's a grill for me, and man, I'm just, I look at it every day. It's just an incredible piece of art, as is, you know, really everything that ACK does in my eyes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:It's a, it's a, it's a super, super, super fortunate and and lucky to be able to, you know, pick that up. And yeah, I just and then, speaking of him too, you know we could probably dive more into it, but I can't wait to see what he's, you know, coming up for grandskillpianocom and I don't know everything he's got going on. He, he always keeps it interesting and I just, I love that so much about him, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, between him shutting off his accounts. You know, and I'm not sure how, how long ago you came into the space, but when he, like you know, did the meta, like did the story of where he killed himself and he got sent to the burn address and he got brought back from the dead, yeah, it just yeah, man Amazing. Yeah, he's, he's. He's a lot of fun man and just one of the one of the best storytellers I think I've ever come across.
Speaker 1:And I think it's such a privilege, dude, to be able to, to be able to like just kind of share the same space. But you know, like for me, that piece stood out because it was just like my really left curve take. It was like yellow and it was like, wow, like this is different. You know, there was a bright, it was just kind of a slap you in the face. Was what was it specifically that drew you to that piece? Like, was it just the color? Like, was there any? Like, however deep you want to go, but was there any significant meaning for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was. You know, honestly, well, the whole entire collection, the whole, I think it does to to an extent. So my wife plays the piano extremely well. We have one in our home and she'll play it and it's, you know, she's super talented, she's great, and I just enjoy it so much.
Speaker 2:So I would say that, you know, I did have that connection with the collection, immediately tours, like it was, that it made me think of her and so upon. You know, seeing, like serendipity, I think, the color, like to your point, it definitely like sucked me in immediately, like I could, just I could feel it. You know, there's almost like a, there's like an energy from it that you kind of feel that was really the thing that brought me in and then, just, I mean, I honestly just kind of fell myself just staring at it and just like I just I love it. I really love the intense yellow that is, you know, then accompanied by the rest of the flowers and the. I think the other thing too was the.
Speaker 2:I loved like the hard lines of the piano, like within the composition there's almost like this if you look at it like this, it's like this triangle in the middle of the composition, of the whole and something about that too, like that little triangle of space. I just get like sucked into that's kind of where where I get lost a bit in terms of just like the general composition of it, okay, and it's just I love it. And to like another thing as well is like there's you kind of see the either pedals or leaf scattered around on the on the ground a little bit. That's just I don't know, just like small details like that. That I love that. You know there's a greater story behind, like someone placing all of those there by hand. You know, maybe they haven't quite finished yet. I just I love it. Man, it's a, it's a beautiful. I can't wait to get a print of it, because you know what I'm going to do is I'm going to get a print of it and we're going to hang it right above my wife's piano.
Speaker 1:I love that man.
Speaker 1:I love that dude and I yeah, I mean that yellow just kind of slaps you across the face. You know, when you, when you're like, wow, man, but you touched on something that like I there's something I can relate to. Is that the concept of space? You know, like that you mentioned, like that triangle, you know, and it kind of just sucks you in. Like I'm a huge tool fan and like I love the, the way they use space in their music. Like there's, the music just breathes. You know, it allows, it, allows you, it invades you, it invites you, it welcomes you. It's not for everybody but, you know, for people who want to be there. Like it just allows for this really kind of meditative trance. You know, at least I get sucked into. So it's, it's really, it's really cool to hear that Like I'm a huge fan of just the concept of space, whether it's in visual art, whether it's in audio, whether it's in you know anything, I think that you know.
Speaker 1:I guess, if I'm gonna riff on this a little bit, is that it. I feel like we have, we don't really have that much space as humans anymore. Like we're just so overloaded with information like all the time, like you and me were talking about this offline, where it's just like, you know, when you're keeping up to the space, it feels like you're drowning, you know, you're just like, oh man. So I feel like any moment where I just get to experience that, just like they just created this thing that I don't have to worry about and I can just get lost for, you know, 30 seconds or 30 minutes, Yep, it's just so beautiful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same, I love that too. I tool the tool and out the tool. Example is like amazing too. I don't I don't necessarily listen to a ton of tool, but I do. I'll listen to like a lot of progressive metal or like metal core and death core or that kind of thing, but I do those moments where there's like a it's like a wall of ambience. Yeah, yeah, I say I mean I really like get lost in that kind of stuff. The whole space thing is a really like. For me that was like the idea of space within like a composition of a drawing, a piece of art, design especially Like that whole idea and like looking into space was really like a pivotal point for me. I think is just like a creative.
Speaker 2:I had this drawing teacher in college and he was great guy, kind of like off the wall a little bit. That's some like really wild stuff, like out there just to touch. But I mean I had a thing is like brilliant the way he looks at things and the way he sees things. And I'll never forget we were, we had a class outside one day. It was beautiful, beautiful day and he was like I just want you all to kind of like look around you, look at your surroundings, pick something and just start drawing it and I'll come around and we'll talk about it.
Speaker 2:And I picked, like there was this line of trees and you know there's gaps in the trees, all this kind of stuff. And he was like, okay, just draw what you see. Yada, yada, like okay, this is good, this is good. But what I really want you to do, like, take this piece of paper, remove it. You're done with this one. What I want you to do is I don't want you to draw the trees, but I want you to draw the space and whatever. He told me that.
Speaker 2:I don't know, it was just like something clicked into my head where I was like oh shit, like huh. I never really in my head, like I don't know. I just never thought about looking into it like that, I guess, or from like an observational point of view. And honestly once I did, I feel like not only did like my art or, you know, design change just like my whole like creative approach change. You just become like hyper aware of those spaces within like a composition and honestly I still like I just that that has stuck with me for so long and it was so funny. Like as a design student, the greatest lesson I feel like I ever got was from my drawing teacher, like a fine art drawing teacher, so I would mention it by name, but I won't do that to him, but shout out to him. I'll have to maybe send this to him. He'll know who he is. But yeah, it's, you know, it's just it stuck with me for all these years and just changed the way that I observe.
Speaker 1:I think that's incredible, man. It's really funny how you know, it's really funny how those moments just come unexpected. You know it's from the people that you least expected from and I think that it's. I loved, like the kind of the context of who this professor was, like. You know, a little like kind of did some off the wall shit, you know, is a little strange. You know, and I feel like those are the most interesting people, man. Like, I feel like those are the type of people that like are in the space that we both love participating in. You know, it's like kind of like the people you're like man, like they're a little, they're a little out there, but they're dialed in. You know it's like yeah, dude, it was so like.
Speaker 2:I would. We would be walking around campus, you know, with it he was. He was great. Like sometimes he would be like all right, you guys want to take a break, and like go down to the cafeteria and like grab some slushies or something Like I need something. So I was like we would always be like yeah, but it was always so fun to take those walks with him because he would. He would like just stop in, you know, the middle of a concourse or something like that. He would like look and he would like stop the whole class and he would tell us you like y'all see that over there, Just look, look into that space. Just just like, sit there and observe that space, just look at the clouds going through the space, just like stuff like that. But it's like I remember moments like that, like so so vividly. I don't know there was just like something so effective about that, but he never failed to like get us to not necessarily look directly at the object but look at what is around the object, I guess.
Speaker 1:But yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, dude, I mean it's, it's a. The more we talk about this, the more I just start to think about, you know, when you start looking at, like I feel like you know, it's not it's only been recent where you just start looking at objects and you look at the space that it takes up and the concept of space, its relationship to time. You know, you know, things withering away. You know certain objects, you know I'm a, you know, I think I. You know I'm not sure if you saw this, but like I'm a huge fan of, like Emily Edelman's, you know, the two's project and it's like, dude, the fact that, like she made me look at the number two in a different way. It's like this is such a fun exercise because, like, we just look at two in the terms of the utility that it provides. It gets a number, it's an accounting unit, you know, but it, with the way she did that, it can be so much more and I'm just a huge fan of that concept, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, likewise. And I that is a great reminder too, because I was I totally missed that. I like whiffed on that mint, but I need to go pick some up because I've let's see, there's her. And then I know Martin Grasser and Vera had like a collaboration that was like typography based as well, and I really want to like start to sink my teeth into that because to like as a designer, I do love it's like type heavy works and there's not, honestly, like not a ton of that in our space, like honest, really barely any. I don't know much at all, but I really got to like get more into. But I appreciate the reminder and I even think you may have been the person that shouted her out to begin with, because I tweeted. I was like, is there like typography pieces that I can acquire in this space? Like I have not seen it really, really anything. And I think you were the first person to mention her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember that it was like halfway through. You're just like the like after, after I brought up, I'm like wait, like, yeah, I remember sharing that tweet because I was, I was so obsessed I missed out on one of her mints and Marfa. I just I just was too slow to pull the trigger and I got to meet her a little bit there and then when she like she's like, hey, like you know, these sold out, but, like you know, check out this upcoming thing that I'm, it's like you know, a month away, but I'd love you know, to see if you're interested in it, and I just, the more I looked at it, I'm like too, it's like what the fuck you know? And uh, yeah, it just grew me over time. So, yeah, I was definitely, I definitely shilled her really hard and like very proudly Cause, yeah, yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 2:I mean it's a great. It's really like a great collection. We I, we did a ton of like that in college. Like one of my favorite projects we ever did was creating this horizontal, uh, composition of the word typography and you just kind of had to go letter by letter but, um, you know, the goal was to create something that you know it doesn't say typography. You're using like the spaces around the words and within the words to kind of create a horizontal composition which was like I don't know it really also changed the way that kind of like saw type and shape and stuff like that, and she like that too. His project has like the perfect job of that. Like it takes me back to those days.
Speaker 1:It's, it's. It's really cool to see like different types of art bringing us back to moments like that. And so I, you know it makes me curious, like you know, like you, you like you, uh. Or student of design, like was did you work like, were you creating art before you became a design student? Like what drew you to design in the first place?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I was, um, I was, yeah, definitely like way into art, far like way before I got into design. Um, so I Gosh, it was like mid to probably 2006. Um, I was, I was like I had a bunch of gaming forums and you know that kind of age of the internet, um, and everybody had all these like sick, like clan tag signatures in their names and I was like, you know, I saw those and I was like, god man, I need to go make some for my clan. Like that's so, that's like so much fun, I love that, Let me go, let me go pirate a copy of Photoshop real quick and like put it together.
Speaker 2:And upon doing that, I really just kind of like fell in love with that mode of creation.
Speaker 2:I thought it was, you know, really, really, uh, it was just fun, I, it was super engaging for me.
Speaker 2:So, um, I, I started doing that and then I had, by virtue of that, I kind of got involved with these communities that were more so like like less about clan or uh forum tags and signatures, more so like about digital art, because I was always seeing out assets or seeking out how people did you know how certain techniques were executed, that kind of stuff, um, and so then I ran into, um, these, like I ran, I got into DeviantArt, uh, and then I found out about these like awesome digital art collectives, um, namely, uh, depthcore, which um was, was ran by Justin Mallor, who I think a lot of people probably know him in this space.
Speaker 2:But, um, honestly, I, I will go on the record and say that DepthCore and Justin Mallor are like, uh, in many, many ways, pioneers of the digital art that we kind of all know now, um, I, I still, and I try to advocate for this and like talk about it as much as I can, but I, I still don't think a lot of people know like all the work that went on during those days and like, um, really, like almost how they I don't know, sometimes I think about them and I'm like they're kind of the reason Cinema 4D turned into almost like an artist's tool, uh, to a certain extent, like they really really pushed the envelope in those early days, um and so and so that I, I, you know, then it was like a jumping off a cliff.
Speaker 2:I was like I, I really really became just hyper focused on, like, the digital art side of things and it was an obsession of just like, how can I go recreate that? Like that was that was really how I, I practiced was, um, they would drop like a new collection or you know, there would, there would be a new release and I would see pieces that I like and I would just say, okay, I gotta go figure out how to do that. Um, let's just like work it until I, I feel good about it. Um, and that was that's ultimately how I learned Um, and during those days, I, I ended up joining a couple of collectives. Um put out some more, had some uh, I don't know if anybody remembers, but had some work featured in Adobe Photoshop magazine. Oh, no way, yeah, yeah, in a yeah, which is, which is real. That's like such a throwback. I don't, I don't even know if they exist anymore. I mean, it is a magazine, but, um, that's more in there.
Speaker 2:Um, I, I, I really knew during that time that like, okay, my, my future as a uh guess quote unquote professional or an adult would be something in the creative world. I just, I just don't quite know what it is. Um, and as I was graduating from high school, my aunt is, um, I was like I don't know what it is. My aunt, uh, she's a creative director. Um, and she was telling me, uh, just like she went to school for for design, uh, she went to undergrad and she's like super successful and she's like, hey, you know, I'll, I'll throw some wrecks for you. Um, maybe you can get into this school and and and go study there. And eventually I did, and I uh, during that time I really like I kind of let the art or, uh, digital art take like a back seat. Back seat to my focus design and those studies, um, I was still kind of creating every now and then, but it was very much like, okay, I'm in school for design, I have to like work my ass off and be the best, because of the program that I was in was like super, super, super competitive. Um, I mean studio hours, like working until three or four in the morning, if not all night. Yeah, really, really working hard to improve your craft, um, and create good work.
Speaker 2:So I focused on design like a lot during that time and, um, even like up to the point to where I I graduated. You know it was very much. You know, does design heavy work, um, but you know, at least during that time I never really lost my sense of curiosity, I think as a creative I did. I continued to explore with like Cinema 40 or, uh, even like processing and JavaScript like that kind of thing, seeing how, um, I could output code to like interesting design, you know collateral and stuff like that. So I was always like and still am, of course, like a really, really curious person. I was just like how I learned a lot. So I at least kept that Um.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, I mean, I entered the world as a, as a designer, um, still kept creating like digital art and stuff on the side, but like never really shared it with anyone. You know, it's just something I kind of designed. I think it was like a release or like a point of catharsis for me to just like get things out of the system. That makes sense. Yeah, just never really like knew what would come of it. And then you know, fast-forwarding a lot now. Now we're here there's some things in the middle there, but you know, I, I, uh, I got into crypto like in 2017 and stuck with it and then, um, I was, I, I, yeah, I was early um, round-tripped some you know, some really really decent acts. You know, like learned my lesson, um, but I, I, I was, you know, I was really kind of addicted to it at that point. Then I, to be fair, I really didn't spend a whole, I didn't give a whole lot of attention to like NFTs as tech or anything like that. Um, until people started releasing work.
Speaker 2:Um, I did follow him, following him like for the longest time, and, um, I was like my not claim to fame, but I was. I was like referenced this email thread that I had back with him from like 2013. Um, or just like, I don't know, I think about that a lot. And he, I, I, he's still like the same exact person. Just like super helpful, that's so kind. And like, yeah, I was like you know he shares a lot of his files and was like, hey, um, you know these are all, uh, cc zero. Like download them, figure them out, like go look at all this cool shit. Um, email me if you have any questions. So I would just like email him with questions like how did you do this?
Speaker 2:Like what is this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was always like so um, you know, just like eager to help Um, and so once, so I, you know, fallen in for a while, and once he started releasing um, you know, his art via NFTs, I was like that. That was like a aha moment for me where I was like, oh my God, well, first of all, I can collect. People are like Holy shit, let's. I gotta, I gotta get there.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately it was a bit out of the, a bit out of the price range, um and then um. You know, at the same time I was like I can make my own stuff. You know I can, I can create my own work. And that's kind of where it all started, for you know my career as a artist.
Speaker 1:I love that dude. Wow, like thanks for like that, really like in depth breakdown, like I mean that it's it's cool to hear, it's cool to hear from like start to like, at least from start to present you know like where, like like how you, how your journey kind of, I guess, found you or how this all unfolded. Yeah, um, a question I have and this actually came from my conversation with Emily uh, who is the previous guest in the podcast Uh, do you view design and art and fine art, uh, as one in the same or do you view them as different?
Speaker 2:Um, oh man, that's a. That's a tough one. That is such a hard question. I think, um, I think I I don't necessarily view them in the same and and maybe that is like a byproduct of just design being my working life, um, and and I feel like the way that I've kind of viewed design, um, especially just like within the world that I work in, it's always like a metrics driven. Like you know, the, the, the expressiveness or the emotion of it, um, doesn't really exist, uh, so much as as art does, and I think there is like a middle ground between those two things where, you know, design, art, art is design, where people who, like Emily, um are, are really expressive with things like typography or design elements, and that's where those two worlds like really meet in clash. Um, so I don't know, maybe maybe that's very much a non answer, but I mean that that is.
Speaker 1:That is a tough one, um, yeah yeah, I put you on the spot there, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think it's just like the approach. Um, because there's a lot of also like one trend that I absolutely love with um. Design these days are like people are really kind of it's becoming super experimental, um, just like with either web dev, um, or like creating these just kind of like insane, um, very anti-traditional typefaces, you know. Versus the world that I come from, in design it was always like, uh, you know, helvetica is king every, you know minimalism, uh, swiss type like approach, that is the way we see design and that that is kind of how we want to execute it.
Speaker 2:Um, versus these days, I do see just like a lot of great, like people kind of break in the mold. Uh, and it's a movement in design that I I really have come to like appreciate and I think maybe it is because in in my mind, the way that I see it, it is kind of like, uh, bringing those two worlds together, like I don't know what a good name for it would be, but I just see design becoming more expressive. I guess, um, it's a trend that I love to see and I really hope to see more of it. Um, you can only like recycle shit so much that it just like kind of becomes stale after a while. So kudos to the people who are like really pushing the envelope with that.
Speaker 1:Well, I think generative art is a great way to to marry, you know, to to have like, if I'd.
Speaker 1:Js is a great way to marry the two, you know as, as we saw there, because it introduces a set of uh, introduces a set of restrictions, it introduces a set like of randomness, it, uh, it allows you to really kind of put as much constraint and control on it as you want, um, but also allowing the computer and the code to kind of do what it will or do what it may, um, I think it's a really cool like middle ground and I and I like your answer because it, it, it got deeper into the to. That understanding for me is like I feel like there's probably maximalist on both sides, but like there is a world where both of them exist at the same time. You know like, theoretically they're, you know they're a bit different, but at you know if you, if you kind of explore how they can be married together, it is possible. Right, yeah, yeah, dude, why no? I appreciate that, I appreciate it. I like that literally just came up and I'm like I'm gonna put on a spot a little bit. Yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 2:No, that's, that's fine.
Speaker 2:I think you know you mentioned something, too, um, about constraints and and I think, um, it's probably the designer in me too, but I do find a ton of creative freedom within constraints, like I. For me, like that is a lot of times where I just kind of like thrive if I give myself, you know, certain constraints to kind of like live by or think about it. For me, it makes my approach like just that much more creative, and a great example of that is, um, opep and and what chatbotures has done about that. I think, um, I, just I, I love the idea of taking that like silhouette, um, and just like really pushing it to the limit like and and and two.
Speaker 2:With the sets that have been created, I think we've seen like how kind of how creative that can make people are, like force you to be. I don't know there's there's a ton of creative freedom and constraints and I don't think people don't necessarily talk about that a whole lot, um, but it's something that you know I try to explore and think a lot about with my work because, you know, for at least me as an individual, it's, it's quite freeing, um, yeah.
Speaker 1:Dude, yeah, I mean it's, it's and it's also kind of count.
Speaker 1:It's a bit counterintuitive to like the way people think of creativity, uh, because you know, at least the way I, you used to think about it in the beginning was like, oh, I just need this, all this like space of like uninterrupted time and I need to be zen as fuck and like there needs to be no pressures and there needs to be.
Speaker 1:You know, that's really where I've I found, you know, like that's really where the creative freedom lies, but, like, the more I talk to people and the more I talk to artists, specifically like yourself, it's like, dude, there's, there's so much fun and kind of having a deadline there's fun, there's a, there's a, there's a bit of, there's a bit of incentive, um, to think on your toes. Uh, cause I find that, even with me, just even when, when it comes to anything I do with media, it's like sometimes I, you know, and I don't do it as much intentionally today, just cause I have too much going on, but there was a time where or I do it every once in a while we're all intentionally give myself like not that much time to see what comes of it, you know, uh, and to see what type of creative choices that I make. So I love that you like really highlighted that cause. It's definitely a something that I think this space could use a lot more of. Or to to, to, to.
Speaker 1:I guess be open to it a little bit more you know, especially with a lot of emerging and just well, even not emerging, you know, artists that are, that are in this space. I feel like it's a great concept to revisit. Um, yeah, dude, Uh, and I'm glad, yeah, so glad you brought that up. So I think you know, a logical next step for at least in my, the way I want to talk, you know, at least in the story is the memes. Man, like I cannot think of bats without like you, it's just like your name and your profile picture and your pet face just immediately come to mind when I think about that. And I fucking love it, dude, you know, and it, I'll admit it took me.
Speaker 1:You know, like I I kind of came in for collectibles, then I was an accidental art collector and then I started interviewing photographers and then I started looking at a generative art and memes were like never something that like I never dismissed them, but I just like I didn't fully get it. You know like it was, it wasn't like front and center. So like it's been one of those topics, along with generative art, that, like I've really made a conceded or a concerted effort to to like explore more and, like man, getting to dive into your work has been so much fun. Uh, how did? How did, like you know, cause I can't again, I can't think of you, know, pepe, without thinking about you. How did this like idea just come to fruition, like it probably you know, like would love to kind of pick back up on that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that is man. It is such a wild um, I don't know I, I, I don't know, it's like whenever I think about this and like I have these moments where it's like I can't believe, like I'm here and I'm like doing this, it's like it's so, it's, it's wild. Um, so, yeah, pepe, um, well, I, you know very much like a lot of people here, I'm very much like a child of of the internet, right, like, spent so much time just browsing online, getting into every niche community that I could find and just finding out what they're about. Um, one of those being 4chan, uh, which really like put Pepe on the map, of course, with Phil's good man, um, and then the memes just kind of rolled in from there. Um and so like.
Speaker 2:During that time, of course, I was, you know, aware of Pepe, I was making memes, you know shit, posting on 4chan or Reddit or wherever. Um, during that time, I really hadn't thought about it too much as a form of art. Granted, this was like some years ago I don't know this was, this was really long ago Um, so, fast forwarding into, you know, my, my time here in the space and and, uh, crypto, again, I kind of picked back up on that, whereas, like, pepe is like, very much a part of the culture with crypto. Uh, so I found myself like being just, I don't know more. I don't know, I just like want to share more Pepe memes want to make more memes.
Speaker 2:You know I want to, yeah, and through that I was like, well, I really need to get involved with the communities who are like really into that, um, you know, rare Pepe's and fake rares, um that kind of thing. And it just so happened that I stumbled upon a release from dark farms. I think the majority of people probably know dark farms the absolute legend. There's no one proficient as dark farms. Um, I'd stumbled upon Smalls. Uh, his like kind of Pepe derived. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:They're incredible.
Speaker 2:Um, so I stumbled upon that, bought some and really like, got involved with the community. And that was a moment, uh, uh, during my time in this space, where I, I knew, like there was no doubt in my mind that I had found like my group of people or like my tribe, um, I really gelled with them, I, I vibed with them. They're, they're great folks, um, and the more I got involved with them, the more you know I was like, the more I thought about, I think, exploring Pepe from my own perspective, or, you know, a quote, unquote, artistic perspective, I guess. Um, and so then, uh, being being a designer, the my, my inclination was to, okay, if I frame like Pepe from my point of view and break him down visually as much as I can, how, how far can I take it but still keep the essence of Pepe himself, like, let's look at it kind of through a different lens, um, and that's ultimately how geometric Pepe's was born. Uh, and I, you know, while I was creating those, it wasn't like a, oh man, I'm going to, I'm going to create a hundred of these and sell all of them and it's going to be, you know, my flagship collection or whatever. It was more so, like, I just want to like be creative and have fun and share those with my friends. Um, and just like vibe and and enjoy my time, um, and so I would do that, like I would share that with Smalls Chat. Uh, and they were really receptive to it.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I had tweeted about it and, uh, paul Tran, my my first like collector of geometric Pepe's, was like, hey, where can I buy this? And you know, I was like, oh, holy shit, like somebody actually wants to buy this. Okay, that's, that's wild. Sure, I'll put it up and and you can buy it. And really, man, it just it snowballed from there. Um, that's incredible. Yeah, and it was just a um, it was very much like a gosh.
Speaker 2:I don't know that the whole creative process for for that thing was just I. I loved it so much and I feel like I'm starting to get into that groove again with a lot of the work that I'm doing, just like really falling in love with the process of it all. Um, but you know, ultimately it was just about you know, capturing the, you know visual essence and and emotion and feeling of Pepe through a different lens. Um, and here I am today. It's crazy. I think. One thing to say too.
Speaker 2:I think during that time I really started to formulate or um put together stronger feelings and thoughts just about how I, how I, view memes as an art form themselves. Um, I probably wouldn't have said it at the time, I didn't really quite understand or really maybe think too deeply about it, but I I'm very much of the mindset that memes are like the ultimate form of contemporary art. Uh, in our digital age, um, I can't think of anything that, from my vantage point at least, that you know, touches it. Um, I just I think they're just really incredible. You know, um pieces of contemporary art. I mean, I know a lot of people probably just view them as like funny pictures, but, um, I think for me these days it's it's a little bit different than that.
Speaker 1:Dude, I, I mean, man, there's a lot that you said there that I that I want to touch on because it's uh, it's it's kind of the bedrock of internet culture. You know, it's uh, it just it makes sense and I think really where it took, um, I think really what drew me, I think really what gave me the strongest connection to your work. Uh, I'll tell you, a story is like Deez had shared um, the, the Matt Fury film, like Feels Good man, um, and it really broke down Pepe like in its entirety and like a in like an hour and a half. Talk about constraints. It was a, it was a really well executed film, uh, and it really, you know, gave you the entire story of Pepe in in two hours.
Speaker 1:Um, specifically, I know memes are a lot larger than that, but Pepe's a big, a big part of that and um, I think really the way that ended was that, you know, because Pepe got used for a lot of uh, for a lot of just unsavory. You know groups and you know talk about 4chan. You know it's like there there was a lot of ways where it's the. You know, when you thought of Pepe, you thought of like just a not great crowd, you know, uh, and when you really like, when I really looked at this, this, this film, I was like dude, this is just like some dude that like created a frog and like, really like, and that's really it, you know, and just wanted to like bring it to life in a funny hole, in a fun and funny, wholesome way.
Speaker 1:Um and I, and I think that really what drew me to that was like, when I saw your work was like, oh, like kind of cause. At the end there was kind of like a, a call to action of like, you know, we're trying to bring Pepe into a better light, you know, to the original light in which, you know, matt Fury intended, you know, um, and that really only happens through memes. You know, that happens through people creating Pepe in a different light, you know, uh, by great, wholesome people. You know, uh, and when I saw your work, I'm like that's what it is, dude. I was like that's what, that's why it makes so much sense, like that's that's it, man, um, and I was hooked, so man, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:That does, uh, that does really mean a lot. Um, I love that film so much too. It was also I, I remember watching that um around the time it came out and just being like wow, okay, yeah, I kind of like a similar um reaction to it, I think, and just like a different I don't know if mindset or mind frame around you know pepe, or just like memes in general.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, dude, it's and it's just, it's kind of like, how can you not want to Like get behind that? You know, that was like the feeling of like, how do you, how can you like fade it at this point? You know, like, how can you not be inspired?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can't and I like, and the thing is to, I mean I, you know I, gosh, I really need to like start writing my thoughts down. Um, I, because I try to think about, um, you know, I, I do think about a lot. I think about, you know, memes, pepe, the internet, uh, as culture and all that stuff. And I very much like the way in which, say like, uh, something like Mickey Mouse is kind of um Weaved within the fabric of like entertainment. You know, you would say, I would, I would strongly argue that like pepe is weaved within the internet, right, like that is, yeah, you know, like it is, the internet is his kind of like in that sense, uh, at least like from a point of comparison, like that's, it's kind of how I, how I really feel about it. I don't, you know, with the age of the internet still being like relatively young, um, I don't, you know, I'm not sure like a lot of people have really like picked up on that yet besides us, like pepe, maxis, um.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, it's kind of crazy to think that, like this is the good old days.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean like yeah, yeah like when you really you're like, like because, like you know, you and me are internet kids like I, like I I don't know how old you are, but like I grew up there was a period where I grew up without the internet, but it was like six or seven years, you know, like it wasn't saying it wasn't that long. You know, before we had dial-up and then we had high speed and then it was like you know, and that's really Now I know the internet was around for longer than you know we had dial-up because it just was when it was commercialized. But, um, when, when you think about that's like, dude, it's only we're only like three decades into this. You know, it's like three or four decades into this and that's really not that long.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, not, yeah, not long at all. And you think about, like, think about our space, like, think about crypto, think about, um, uh, digital art, like that's we're. We're still, like, we're still on the first page of the book you know a very, very long book, mind you. Uh, still a ways to go.
Speaker 1:Totally dude. I mean, it's uh, it's very surreal to think about, like, and I think we went through a lot of pain during during these last, this last year specifically uh, it's, it's been a challenge to walk through, um, you know, but it, you know, I'm not sure if you feel the same way, but like it feels like there's something I can't quite like put my finger on it, but there's something that's like making it more exciting to be here again. Like I'm not sure if you feel that same way, man.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there's there. I I do get that feeling, um, and you know it, a lot of it is piggybacked on, say, like the market, uh, more so like the prices of things, uh, in general. Just, you know, I I think it does kind of uh, turn people up a bit and like, um, folks either return, or they become more active or generally become just like more optimistic. I guess is like that, that kind of feeling. But I, I definitely sense the tide started to turn a bit. Um, just by the way, like you see people talking about, or you see like, uh, what's a good example, like how excited people get for new releases and like there's so much buzz around them, like, um, the drop that William Mappon did with verse, you know, sketchbook, like all that stuff.
Speaker 2:It's an incredible drop, by the way, we could, we could get into that Um, but I think, um, there is like just a lot more of that buzz these days, um, which is great. I mean I, I, I love it. I just I Get happiness by seeing people just like be excited about things that are happening and and being passionate about the things that we're doing in this space. Um, that being said too, I also, you know, um really enjoyed kind of the, the moments of the bear to just really focus and Honestly, I would, I would say like I was born in that kind of market, you know geometric cafes Out until summer of last year, where you know the market wasn't great and even through up through like yeah.
Speaker 2:October, november and even January of this year Um, I was really still going at it and, honestly, one of the best decisions that I ever made, not like that. That's one thing that I always try to like mention to artists who maybe reach out to me for advice and stuff like that. It's like you don't, don't release your work based on I you know, I don't. I don't want to be that guy like telling artists what to do. This is just like my point of view. I think.
Speaker 2:Um, I mean, I've tweeted it a bit jillion times, but I do. I artists should do whatever the fuck they want to do. But you know, my approach was always like man, if I've got work in there and I'm like I just want to get it out and release it, I'm gonna do it. I don't care if eith is 100 bucks or 10,000 bucks. Like I'm just gonna go do, like I don't care if people are buying digital art or, you know, pfps, whatever. I in my gut, my intuition, is telling me hey, you made this thing, you're, you're ready to get it out there into the world. Like you need to release this. And that was what I followed and man.
Speaker 2:It was the most rewarding, just like I, I'm just so glad that I I took that leap and really have given it my all during a market that you know is is certainly not favorable to Um artists or collectors alike, you know totally dude and I mean honestly it's.
Speaker 1:It's. It's so funny, man, how humans work.
Speaker 1:Is that like everyone you know you'll hear, like I think the sentiment I heard was like oh man, I wish I would have bought eith when it was at like 200 bucks, but when when eith is at 200 bucks, you're like fading it and laughing at it, you know, and it's like that's when you bought, that's when you bought, and like you know, the irony is that you know, like, when you release this, uh, when you release this man, it's like you know, one of the side effects that I really enjoyed just to kind of piggyback off of what you said is the side effects of the bear market is that, you know, the tourists leave, you know, and and you get. You get to the psychopaths who are still here and people who are just doing, who have always been doing really cool things, but since there's not as many noise makers, those cool things are put on a bigger stage, you know, or there, there's a lot more attention, there's a lot more eyeballs on it. So I, I think it's so cool and I, you know, as I had that collection pulled them like damn, like, yeah, it was created august of 2022, like that's, uh, like, what a, what a beautiful time to start, like, honestly, because I, I feel and I just to riff on this a little bit is that, uh, you know, you know the, the bear market or the bull market, really, people that came in during the bull, it set a lot of false expectations of what reality. What reality was, you know, and myself included, you know, and I think a lot of artists really, uh, it really hurt a lot of artists to to kind of just think that this was how it was always going to be, um, and that anything would sell at, you know it's, at some of these insane price points, uh, you know, and then now you watch that, watch kind of the undoing of that and the, the reality kind of hitting a lot of people in the face.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, collectors are not just buying everything, collectors are maturing, but also it's just, like you know, like damn, you know, uh, it sucks to see, but it was, it's been very interesting to watch, you know, I'll say that. But I, I just think that people that came in during the bull, you know it's, it's great, it's better to come in and bear, you know, because, uh, man, you have a sense of reality. There's, there's a levelheadedness, man, you know, and there's like there's it's such it is.
Speaker 2:Well, it is the best time to forge genuine relationships. Like, yeah, these are the people who are really just Dedicated to the what we're, what we're all doing here, like this is, these are the people who care so, um, yeah, I mean, I, I I didn't know it at the time, but I do think during that time that I was releasing geometric pepates, I've curated like the best collector base that I possibly could have. These were the folks who were, you know, they were still around and they were still enjoying everything and um, and now I have, you know, the, the core, like geometric pepe collectors who were literally like my best friends in the space. Like these are the people who, um, I, I literally talk to every day. I talk about, like, upcoming releases or um, or maybe we just like bullshit in the chat, but I, I really like forged these meaningful connections with um, these people, whether they're anonymous or not, and Um, airs is the best time to do that.
Speaker 2:That's. I'm just, I'm really grateful that I did, because you're, I don't know, I think I got a bunch of collectors who just they, they wanted to buy the thing because they liked it, not because of future expectations of price go up. You know what I mean, yeah dude, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:I mean it's a, it's a great, it's yeah. And because we can't escape that as humans, like you know, we were like, oh man, I'm gonna learn next time for the bull run. But the reality is that, like we have really short-term memory, like, once this thing comes back, we're gonna have, you know, like, our expectations are gonna be a lot, a lot different than they are now. You know, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. So it's cool to it's cool to hear that because, like now you get again. You get the people that are level-headed, you get the people that like, want to buy it because they want to buy it. They buy it because they like it. You know it makes them feel good, um, you know, but it's, it's an interesting point, you know.
Speaker 1:So I one thing I wanted to Double click on here a bit is for what you can say. You know, feel free to share however much you want to on this. But I know you mentioned William, william and pans drop, uh, and that sketch it just it was so cool to see, like, how much that overtook the attention of the space. It reminds me, reminds me of, like when ack did the great color study. You know it was like, oh my god, that was just. The whole space was fixated on that for a whole month, um and.
Speaker 1:I just all I saw was William on the timeline. You know I was like dude. This is insane. Uh and and their versus aws bill must have been ridiculous.
Speaker 2:I cannot imagine.
Speaker 1:Totally dude, but I know you've been toying around with a generative project man, so I'd love to know anything you want to share about that. Like, I would just kind of love to know, like, how that idea came, maybe what the concept is. Uh, yeah, dude, we'll just love to know whatever you can share about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, yeah, of course, I think, um, you know kind of to start from to, from like the beginning of it, from like just like an ideation or like it's in my head and I need to do this at some point in time, kind of thing. Um, it was whenever I was releasing geometric pet base and um 4156 had replied to one of my tweets was like man, this would be a killer.
Speaker 1:Generative collection oh dude and I was like some of my head, I was like damn Okay, like let's Keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:We, I will. I will table that I already have plans set forth. I need to stick to what I'm doing and and how I've planned this out, or how I'm just like thinking about everything in general, but a generative collection based at the time I was like based around Pepe's, really really interesting. I'll. I won't come to that whenever it. I feel it whenever it is time um, and so I had done back when, uh, back when open editions were like all the rage, like earlier this year, I remember yeah, it was crazy, it was insane.
Speaker 2:Um, back when that was like all the rage, I had done Um and it's like very much like just, I don't know who I am as a, as a person, but like a release. That was kind of in some ways like Not taking the dig at open editions, but I was just like, okay, y'all listen, this thing's going to be open for three months. I'm like this is an open edition. It's open for three months. Bye now, bye whenever, I don't care, but I'm not closing it. It's open for three months. Um, and really just kind of is like a to be a bit cheeky, maybe like antithetical to some of the things that people were talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, trust me, I was a bit, I'm a bit scarred Yo.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know, oh man, I know that. What a what a time it was. I, during that time though it was um, while I was releasing that, I had always had in my head like, okay, the chances are likely that you are going to capture a large group of people's attention with this release, like in terms of collectors, you know, ended up being like 1800 individual collectors or something like that, and so and so, with that in mind was like, okay, now you've, you've, you've got this collector base. What are you going to do with it? And you know, I don't I'm not like encouraging artists to like do that and make promises or anything, but I do find that it is a very good way to capture people's attention directly and get them to like engage with your work in. You now have this opportunity to create like a unique experience for them as you see fit.
Speaker 2:So, and so, coming at the end of that drop, and by the time I closed it out, I was still a bit uncertain what I wanted to do. You know, I wasn't really talking a ton about it. I knew that something was coming down the pipeline, it just, you know. It just really hadn't hit me yet. And that's when, I don't know, I thought, okay, hey, generative collection, let's like, let's dive into. While I was in processing at the time, I'm using p5.js. Now I'm in another route, very, very similar. I I just kind of like started twang around and started to like frame it. Think about it. Okay, like this, I can actually execute on this. This is something that I'm mostly capable of building. I have, you know, do need some help on a few things that are, I think, out of my technical prowess. But that's okay this way, as long as, like you know, I can execute my vision as I see fit. So I started doing that and then after that, I would hop into illustrator and kind of create these grids, just as like a visual experimentation, like what do I want this thing to look like? And I think I got to like a really good point to like okay, I've done my like visual explorations for the most part. I'm honestly like still doing that every day, but I can start to code this thing and, you know, be a bit more confident in this being a true release. And that's when I, you know, announced that, hey, I'm working on a generative collection. Keys are or well, yeah, now their keys are going to be a part of that. And so, within that, you know, I I kind of curated that collector base that I was talking about and now I'm giving that experience that I wanted to do.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I fast forward a little bit. You know, just some highlights. Yeah, I started to it was very much, at the beginning, based around Pepe. Of course, like you know, that's my work, but I did. I I loved the idea of breaking it out into less of like Pepe focused, more just like meme focused, so like things like Bobo or things like grant is like grants color palette or the goose's color palette yeah, things like that, like memes that fit within our space, like that's a, that's a big big thing that I like when I key on, and so I introduced those. And then, yeah, I mean really just right now, I think you know fast forwarding to like the current day I'm still like I have a really good grip on where I'm heading, like I the path is pretty clear and like put it pretty straight. I still do like, every now and then, like to fear from it and try new things and tell them I actually shared God. Was that yesterday? No, it's well, wasn't yesterday.
Speaker 1:I can't remember, but anyways.
Speaker 2:I shared. I shared an example that I've been working on that had like this kind of noise dithering effect to it, just as like a point of textural exploration which I think is gone like really well, like so. So that's kind of like an addition to it. Now, okay, we have like a new texture set that I'll be adding into the release as a whole. So I say I'm still very much in the process of that, just like nailing down the exact things that I want. Like the color palettes are great, the way that the grids are constructed is great. Texture so far, like, eh, like I mean I feel generally good about it, but it's not to the point to where, like, I am saying, okay, this is it, I'm good to go. So I think that's kind of I wouldn't say it's the last piece of the puzzle, but like from a high, high level, it kind of is because it's like, ultimately, that it's kind of what constructs the final output of the thing. That's incredible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then you know, as far as timelines, I am shooting for like a December release for this. I think I'm pretty relatively confident. I mean, you know it is art, we'll see, kind of like, what comes up with that. But yeah, but yeah, I mean, I really do feel like I'm in a. I'm in a phase of the workflow of it where I'm like breaking out in a sense, like I can just feel myself like really, I don't know, it's like everything that I'm doing just aligns with my vision, and every time like I generate the output for them, like yes, that is it, like okay, like we're doing it, we're making progress. So I can feel like I don't know the momentum picking up of it as far as like my mindset and how I feel about the collection as a whole. So, yeah, I hope that I think I covered most of it. Yeah, dude, I mean questions and any questions about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that's really what I want. Yeah, it was just, it was cool to kind of see. It is like you know, because right now, like geometric Pepe's was like what sense you know, like that that's you know, even though it wasn't planned, that's like, it's like damn, like this is like the collection you know this is, you know, the, the, the collection that you know you're most known for, and so I found it really cool, like as we're like talking about the story as well, it's like, you know, having these elements of design, having these elements of memes and watching the, the, the, I guess, the meshing of those two and all of your work, whether that's in the additions, whether it's you know, and whether it's in the, the one of ones you know, and now it's kind of this evolution to generative, and I find that just so fascinating because you're the thing that really sticks out to me, man, is it like I'm a big fan of, like really short, condensed bios, and yours just says modernism, you know, and I fucking love that man, because it like it doesn't, it's very Jack Butcher of you, you know, because it, because it doesn't pin you down to one, to like one style, to like one. I know I've, if I've learned like one of the cardinal rules of like never what to do with artists is like don't box them into a style. You know like they may have a current style, you know. You know they may have like a current, you know stage that they're in, you know, but putting a box or a cage around people is like what we're trying to like fight against, you know, or like to just to, I guess, to document and this, like this to me is just like dude, you know everything's a me.
Speaker 1:You can look at the meme as Pepe you can look at a meme is like 656 529s, you know, version of the meme. You know a cultural artifact, memes, memes are just everything you know, and so I it's like it's a brilliant, like it's a brilliant. What's I'm looking for? Like Twitter description. I just wanted to highlight on that because you can do all this man, it like is. That was that kind of the point, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That was that. That was exactly the point of it. It was just like I don't know. I was like I would like see all these like Twitter, like bios and stuff, and it's like God, I don't know man, like you know, neo post, blockchain, futurists, you know, just like some bullshit like that. Not that that's okay, like people have their like styles and stuff like that and they describe it certain ways and that's okay. But like at the beginning it was very much like a tongue and she's like oh well, you know, I practice modern, me mesm.
Speaker 1:So it's almost like it's self.
Speaker 2:it's kind of like a meme, but recently I do feel like I maybe maybe take it just like a little bit more seriously as well. Like we were talking earlier, just like you know, modern me mesm doesn't necessarily conform to a certain style, like you were saying, but it is very much like the approach and the mindset that memes are a true form of art and we are creating and addressing it as such. I guess it's like the you know the short of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think the beauty of that is that, you know, I can't remember who tweeted this the other day, but it's, I think. I'm not sure, yeah, I can't remember who it was, but it was like, essentially this it's this permissionless. There's no like. We're not. We don't need permission from like an institution to like make it and like to like put it into the Canon. You know, right, and I think, and I think that's a really beautiful part about like what you know, what you've contributed so massively to what a lot of other people here have as well as that, it's like this is all the validation we need. It's like you know, when you look at like why the dollar is a dollar, it's because we say it's a dollar, you know, and it's when you really think about it, it's like one. You know, bitcoin is a Bitcoin because we say it is and we believe in it, you know, and same thing with this. So I love that. You really touched on that.
Speaker 2:It's, it's it's memes all the way down, All the way it's memes all the way down. Everything is a meme.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you can permit me, and honestly, man, to me that's the Trojan horse, you know, with with a lot of different, with with people that don't quite understand it, because you you be hard pressed to like find someone, like there's sometimes where you don't send a response back in a text, you just send a gift, you know, and it's like that just does way. It's such a better way of communicating, so much fun to have give conversations versus actual words.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree. I agree it makes it so much more fun. I'm in the. I'm in like a group chat that I can't, that Molly McCutcheon had put together and it was like I love Molly.
Speaker 2:The title is like no words, just vibes, Right. So you're not allowed to to like talk in the chat or anything like that. You just like share memes or share gifts. But it is so funny to watch people communicate through memes when it's like if you just post one, the ones that follow like are contextually the same or they're communicating something back to you. It's interesting, like almost as like a form of language.
Speaker 1:You know it is. Yeah, I mean, the only what we're doing now, like I think that's been one of the biggest eye openers for me is that, you know, sometimes memes say what words can't. You know art says what words can't. I think I noticed that when I went to the MoMA and I like particularly walked around the art that was that was created in the in the in the 40s, you know, like during your, during the Second World War, and you like, like I, look at that and you're just like you.
Speaker 1:Really, for me personally, you just captured the soul of what was going on and like it better. If you asked any, you know, out of 100 people, if you ask 100 people what, what their take on it was, you'd get a different answer. But I but I think that art is such a beautiful way to contextualize and to communicate the vibe of like, what people were feeling, because I bet all the responses they may have been different, but the feeling would have been the same, you know, and I just think that's such a beautiful way. I think it's just as a personal, like epiphany that I wasn't expecting to have on my bingo card. You know, joining here was like damn that's kind of rad man yeah dude.
Speaker 1:Well, as we start wrapping things up here man there was. I want to pull a question I had from a very early part of our conversation. You mentioned you were on, you were on in the game. For, like, you were on a lot in a lot of the gaming forums, what did you play as a kid, like? What was your, what was your thing? Yeah, oh man.
Speaker 2:Um, I think at least during that time, well, maybe a little bit before too. So my younger brother and I are like huge cod kids Really, yeah. I mean like really into competitive call of duty, first person shooters, like like that kind of stuff. We were always like you know, people probably I think they still have like game battles and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, we were always doing game battles. I mean, that was always like the thing that we were looking forward to was the next, the next cod release, and even before that, like before it even came out.
Speaker 2:And one thing that really got me onto the gaming forums during that specific time that I'm talking about was a. There was a PlayStation 3 title release. Whenever the PlayStation 3 actually came out, called Resistance Follow man, yeah, and it had an incredible like honestly one of my favorite multiplayer experiences I've ever had in gaming, and they had with that they had this massive forum where people were just like it was such an active, like community and discussion, like it was just so much fun to be a part of, and that was that during that time was when I like really hopped into, you know, making those form signatures and stuff like that. Man, what a time that yeah, yeah, really just always, always involved in like first person shooters are generally like anything super competitive to it will play like like I don't know, like FIFA or Rocket League or stuff like that. That's just kind of how you know we're. We're raised to compete with one another and now you know we compete, we compete together in that sense, I guess you know I love that dude.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was. I wasn't. I was in game battles. I wasn't heavy, I know D's was and we had a good chat about that, but I was a cod kid, halo kid, you know. Gears of War, you know those were like, those were the things that really just yeah, that was, that was a big part of my childhood.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude yeah, I got, I got it. I know D's is heavily involved and he was even on hexes podcast.
Speaker 2:I really needed to talk to him about all that because I I back in those days like cod for maybe like modern, the original modern warfare, maybe modern warfare two I was playing with some of those like early OG optic guys yeah, much like that whole, yeah like that whole crew like I don't buy. We had some connection in common and we would, you know, party up every now and then. But I got I was like man, I got I got to talk to these about like Call of Duty. We really really need to talk about it Because I know that he's like heavily involved and there's like a lot of those guys and like one you know kind of going off topic, just a little bit funny part of all that is to like see how, like Ryan Wyatt or Fritz oh is dude, yeah, how he's like built his career is incredible. It's like one of my favorite things is just like seeing him go from you know optic to MLS, like casting to YouTube gaming head of polygon, like I know see a polygon, like what?
Speaker 2:like that's just like so insane. I know I think he's like doing his own thing, but I just, you know, that's so damn cool.
Speaker 1:Him and I keep. I think he's trying to convince him, like Adam Epicella, who runs eSports engine now, to to like bring back MLG, like I think he's trying to. I think he's on this crusade man Because I, yes, watching that journey. It just, you know, like there was a thing diesel's on his face and we were. He was like man. Every time I hear this guy's talk I just want to run through a brick wall Like it's just like it gets so damn hyped every time. Ryan, you know Fizz speaks.
Speaker 2:It's incredible man, it absolutely same. Also, I realized that I said MLS earlier. It is. I would like to correct that to MLB.
Speaker 2:So I knew what you meant, but I let you know, yeah, it is funny, ryan does have just like a way with, um, you know, like I, like I All those old videos of I kind of like machinima related, yeah, optic would be involved every now and then I just yeah, every time he would talk here. Uh, even like his announcing and MLB or just like made it so, so exciting. I hope I would love for them to see it like revived and come back on board, because I, um, I, I still keep up with competitive caught to some extent and it's just like it's kind of a shit show. Um, they just I don't know, is it somebody's got a step in there and fix?
Speaker 1:it. Halo is as well, man, I I painfully keep up with it like it's it is. It is a chore to keep up with, but like it, it's such an important part of my childhood that, like I feel like I feel like, if they can see it through, whatever this weird period is, because I feel like games in general are just in a really weird state. Like I think it the game industry itself is just it's not great. The communities and shambles, you know there's no direction, there's no solid leadership.
Speaker 1:Games are broken when they release like it's, it's, you know, you look at, like cyberpunk, you know, for an example, like I have a huge fan of cyberpunk and uh, uh, which is not typically my forte, but like the previous one, like dog, this game is fucking insane. Like I, yeah, I cannot wait to play this and it literally a month ago it was just re-released and it now is playable, you know, and it's like Fuck, man, you know, it's like what needs to change? I don't know what needs to change, but here's my thought and I love to hear your thoughts on this Is that I have this thesis that if they would have stopped at, let's say for call duty, let's say black ops 2 and let's say for halo.
Speaker 1:Let's say they stopped at halo 3. Um, I feel like those two games would be in the competitive in the realm not quite the same, because counter strike is counter strike, you know, and in league of legends is league of legends. You can't like dota is dota, but I feel like it would be at least in the same echelon of competitive esports if they just stopped right there. Yeah, like you didn't need to fucking change a thing about those games, like they were so good.
Speaker 2:They agreed 1000 and I I mean black ops 2 is like one of my faves, yeah I. Black ops 1a, black ops 2 are like absolutely incredible call of duties like that. I love those games so much, I agree, and it's like it's such a weird thing To be such a like I mean, I know, you know this through halo like to be such a fan of the franchise Year after year is like disappointment, like god man.
Speaker 2:Here here, I know it's been in 70 bucks on caught again and I know I'm not gonna like like it as much as I as I used to. Um, you know it's, it's just like it is, it's so funny, but I, I agree, man, it would be. Um, it would have been interesting to just like see them stop there. I, it could have kept running. Um, those were great these during the day, especially like oh my gosh, black ops 2, like there were so many like Um, just like gosh. I remember like watching um, I had there's like really like great clips of scum. Um, yeah, those guys like you know, like, yeah, I, just I have such great memories of that and um, yeah, you know, yeah, it was, it was awesome, it was awesome, yeah, yeah because you you proven that with counter strike is like it's been what two or three decades.
Speaker 1:And they just now re-skin the game, you know, and it's like, and even then the community is like it's over. You know, it's like they're just like, yeah, it's fucking done. But I just I think there's something to that where it's just like, how about you just Make new campaigns because you know like the stories are that good or not? You know, because you could have stopped halo at three, you could, um, but like why, you know, just pour all your resources into that and just make another game just as good. You know, and like man exactly.
Speaker 2:Those are the great. Why change the mechanics? Why, especially the mechanics? That's always the most frustrating thing is like oh god, here goes, here goes, call of duty, adding jet packs back in. Great like I just. Oh why I didn't ask?
Speaker 1:for this? No, no one did. Yeah, we really didn't ask for this. Uh, you know, and that was dude, that was right after black ops too. That was advanced warfare. Uh, you know, and that was like after you know. Then black ops three was kind of passable, but you were still running on walls. You're like, just, I don't know man, you know, not the same. Uh, but, yeah, halo, yeah, the same thing with halo, man it's. I'm a fan of both and I'm just utterly disappointed in each. I just I just feel like we need a resurgence of what was good, you know, and like just to revitalize you know those, just, you know, they don't have to be glory days, they can just be the days, you know, and then this is how it's just gonna be. You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly like if they could just give me like a backwards compatible version of black ops, one on my ps5, like I would be set. I'm, I'm done like that. That's like that's literally all you need to give me. I'm fine, dust servers off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude, just like I don't care, I don't care about your like fancy graphics or anything like that. I care about how it plays and how it feels like. That is all that matters to me. I don't, I don't, I don't give a shit about your, your graphics and stuff like that. That that being said, though, I Um I I played the modern warfare 3 beta a good bit. I thought it was pretty decent. I I'm at least like a little bit hopeful that maybe I'll be able to sink some more time into this, versus, like Previous release titles where, like, I'll play for a week and I'm like, oh, I just can't. I just I just like I literally can't do this. But, like modern warfare 3 the new one that's coming out, which I guess would be modern warfare 3 2 yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is that's a whole another conversation about their stupid naming schemes.
Speaker 1:I bought it, so I have it. So you know if you're, if you're trying to, and if you're trying to because, like you know, and here's the reason, here's the reason why I bought it like number one I would have bought it anyway, but here's the reason I really like the real reason I bought it was that they're bringing back rust. They're bringing back, they're bringing back high-rise, they're bringing back all these like maps. They're just objectively good. Uh, with a new campaign that's feeding off of the legendary. You know I'll this is a knock against my cod card here, but like I never played modern warfare 2 campaigns, so like I need to like.
Speaker 2:I heard always just legendary, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, and back when campaigns are good, you know, and uh. So yeah, I dude, I'm excited man, I I played a little beta. I'm like this is comfy dude, Like this feels good, dude.
Speaker 2:It felt like. It just felt good. I was. I was really surprised. I expected to like play it for an hour and then just be like, no, done, not, not doing this again, you're not gonna. You're not gonna ruin these maps for me. Yeah, totally, but it did feel good. I'm really, I'm excited about release. I'll be playing a ton of Um. Maybe my brother played so much search Um. We'll be playing a ton of ton of s and d, so yeah we'll have to. We'll have to link up me.
Speaker 1:Let me know, dude, let me know man.
Speaker 2:Uh, I'm so Like a big, big group going us and d's and other people who want to play. That'd be, that'd be fun.
Speaker 1:Dude, I'm down live stream it on x, live stream it on, you know, youtube or whatever case may be. I feel like. I feel like it'd be so much fun.
Speaker 2:I'm in.
Speaker 1:I am in just just tell me when let's do it. Dude. Hell yeah, man. Well, dude, I feel like this is a great way to like round off like an accent conversation, man, like this has been. This has been so much fun, dude yeah.
Speaker 2:I haven't. I've enjoyed it. We need to um. We need to do it again. Are you gonna be in miami?
Speaker 1:for our.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'll. I will see you there, man. I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Let's do it, man. Well, since you're you know uh Every, you know the, you're not only Uh someone on the podcast, you would, but you're also a premium holder. So, for the, the shiller token. So we are actually throwing a premium holder event in miami, um, and so let's go. We got the bnb locked. We, you know we're, we're making plans for like the day, but uh, it's happening. So I cannot wait to give you a hug, man.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, I know, I'm really looking forward to it. I know, whenever that was one of the, whenever I saw that on the perks, uh, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so in, like I, yeah, I have to do this.
Speaker 1:Oh, dude, it was a blast last time. Uh, you know, dave Kirkman hooked us up with a great place in new york, uh, during nptnyc, and Uh hooked us up with a you know ryan, who's one of. He was a you know five star michelin's uh, five star Michelin chef just catered a whole meal to us, like it was just such a good five man like it's. Yeah, dude, I don't know what we're gonna like. You know, like we're gonna do something of the same this year? Uh, not exactly the same, but it's gonna be a blast man. So I'm, I'm just so, so stoked for it, man. But, um, let's, as we start wrapping up here, man, like I guess I want to ask like One last question before we do the typical like where, where can people find you? Uh, is, what is your family think of all this? Um, what is your wife, specifically, think of all this man?
Speaker 2:Oh, dude, she is um I, I, I cannot be like luckier to like have her as just um, like just the most supportive wife and and person that I could have possibly imagined, like she, she truly, I think, in so many ways like pushed me to Really lean into what I'm doing in this space and like my work. I mean, she has seen me for years and years and years and years like create and create, um in even like my early days, um in an nft world, like creating and you know, not selling anything or not getting you know that, that kind of like attention that I guess you seek or maybe validation is a better word Um and it kind of um Putting me down a bit and and she always just like Encouraged me to like keep pushing it and like keep exploring and um man, I'll never forget I, but whenever I first I, I my first piece that I ever sold was on Tezos. Um, it was whenever hicket muck was like popping off. It was like the, the hen, summer and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:It was the first piece I ever sold. Um, I called her and I was like, oh my god, like I can't believe it, like all this stuff. And of course, she's like so supportive and like I knew you would, like I knew you would. And she, uh, like an hour later, um door dash, comes to the door. She, she had ordered me like this huge thing of anti-ans, like cinnamon pretzels and like Like pretzel sticks with like all this cheese, and like she's like, oh, you know, I thought you deserved a treat.
Speaker 2:You know, I'm just like so proud of you and all that stuff, but like I don't know, it was like one of those moments of them like just so grateful for um, just to like have her, because he's she's always been my biggest cheerleader Um and really just like Helps me, I think, retained confidence and In what I'm doing. Um like even Dude, literally even before this, before we started talking, she was just like oh, you know you're gonna do so great, just keep yourself like you're. You're, you're wonderful. Like I don't know, man, she, she makes this experience Um Just a lot better. Um and I I certainly wouldn't be able to do it without her Um. So, needless to say, I I've got like the best support possible. Uh, within her, um, it could honestly like be luckier, or or more thankful for her.
Speaker 1:Man, I love that dude. I wanted to in and on a wholesome note and I'm so glad like you shared all that, like that's just yeah, man, I, I fucking love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she, even she, and like that's another thing, like real quick, she's like the reason that I went to Charleston too. Uh, for the consequence.
Speaker 1:You know, it was?
Speaker 2:yeah, it was a very Um, we had just gotten off a long vacation, kind of like our first one after our son and been born. We went to Mexico for like five days and then we came back and, um, at the beginning of that week, whenever we came back at, a friend reach out and was like, hey, I've got an open spot to go to Charleston. Um, and I was asking my wife, or I was telling her about it. Um, oh yeah, I was telling her about it. And then I was. I finished it with like I don't know if I'll go, we're not. And she like, she like sits up and she looks at me. She's like what do you mean? You're thinking about it, like you have to go, like you're, you're, you're going to this. And so, sure enough, I, I did, and I, you know, I couldn't be happier that I made that decision.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, he's, uh, she's, she is the best.
Speaker 1:That's incredible, man. Uh, I, I love that, I love that she just gets you out of your comfort zone when you're like kind of doubting yourself.
Speaker 2:Man, yeah, she does, she does dude, she, she has the the perfect knack of doing that. Yeah, I need it, it is. It is essential to my workflow and being, uh, as a creative, as a person.
Speaker 1:Talk about constraints, man. Uh, right, right, love it man, love it, dude. Well, bats man. This is like it's one of those conversations where it's just like you know, I wish we didn't have the constraint of time.
Speaker 1:Uh, uh, I feel like time is a rug man, to be honest. Uh, it is, you know so, the ultimate rug, the ultimate rug dude. So just want to give you one last uh Opportunity to like, share, like where can people find you if there's any other shout outs you want to make man? This has been so much fun.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, uh, yeah, I mean, people can just find me, you know, find me on twitter or x now, as we call it. I still haven't gotten used to it. Um, yeah, yeah, find find me there. Um, I mean, I'm, you know, posting there a lot, sharing everything. I shared my work there and you can, you can, find it.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I'm, uh, you know, currently working on a bunch of stuff that I'll be sharing, um, the process of um, shout out to um, well, shout out to you all for hosting me and having me on shillar. This is, this is awesome dude. I really really appreciate it. Um, and, like I kind of mentioned whatever we were chatting earlier, I think it's, uh, it is important that you know we as individuals, the community, like Support and and lift up platforms, because I think what y'all are doing are really important and you're, you are, um, you are able, enabling artists, in a way, to like, give us a voice and uh, lift us up in that sense. So I really do appreciate all the work that you all do.
Speaker 2:And uh, shout out to I don't have all my collectors. Y'all are fucking legends. Um, gmpepe is collectors chat y'all. Y'all know I love you guys. Um, but yeah, man, I think that's really about it. I'm just really, you know, honored to to be here into chat and Um. We'd love to do it again, you know, maybe, maybe next year. We could, we could 100%, man.
Speaker 1:I'll talk to you a little bit more offline, but we already got plans, uh. But, uh, we'll go ahead and sign off, hang off for a little bit so it finishes uploading, but that's this has been. Uh, again, just want to echo again. This has just been a fucking treat, man. So, um, you have an awesome rest of your day and and I cannot wait to see you in Miami.
Speaker 2:Yeah, likewise man. Thank you so much. Thank you Cheers, cheers man.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Schiller curated podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. As we close that today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the curated podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on x, formerly known as twitter, at Schiller xyz. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remember, if you're looking for it, art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time, this is Boona signing off.