Our recent conversation with OSF, the multi-faceted artist and co-founder of Degenz product, sheds light on the intriguing crossroads of art, finance, and NFTs. OSF's journey, which started with a passion for art and led him to the dynamic world of web-three and NFTs, is an inspiring tale of creativity meeting technology.
The episode wades into the complex yet captivating domain of cryptocurrency and NFTs. We break down the role of social media and memes in driving asset value and challenge the traditional notions of investing. Hear firsthand from our guests about their experiences, their perspectives, and their view of market trends in this rapidly changing landscape. It's a discussion that will leave you pondering the dynamic nature of the crypto market.
OSF is a man who wears many hats, we dive into his role as an artist, and how being an active participant in the Web3 ecosystem adds value to his creations. He shares how the right timing can lend impact to art and how tech advancements have empowered their creative journey. We wrap up with a peek into the life of an artist - the reactions of their family, their future projects, and their approach to community growth. Join us on this riveting journey through art, finance, technology, and more, where we explore the brave new world of crypto and digital art.
OSF links:
Website: https://www.osf.art/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/osf_rekt
Degenz:
Website: https://www.degenz.finance/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/DegenzNFT
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
Our recent conversation with OSF, the multi-faceted artist and co-founder of Degenz product, sheds light on the intriguing crossroads of art, finance, and NFTs. OSF's journey, which started with a passion for art and led him to the dynamic world of web-three and NFTs, is an inspiring tale of creativity meeting technology.
The episode wades into the complex yet captivating domain of cryptocurrency and NFTs. We break down the role of social media and memes in driving asset value and challenge the traditional notions of investing. Hear firsthand from our guests about their experiences, their perspectives, and their view of market trends in this rapidly changing landscape. It's a discussion that will leave you pondering the dynamic nature of the crypto market.
OSF is a man who wears many hats, we dive into his role as an artist, and how being an active participant in the Web3 ecosystem adds value to his creations. He shares how the right timing can lend impact to art and how tech advancements have empowered their creative journey. We wrap up with a peek into the life of an artist - the reactions of their family, their future projects, and their approach to community growth. Join us on this riveting journey through art, finance, technology, and more, where we explore the brave new world of crypto and digital art.
OSF links:
Website: https://www.osf.art/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/osf_rekt
Degenz:
Website: https://www.degenz.finance/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/DegenzNFT
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
GM, this is Boone and you're listening to the Shiller Curated Podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with OSF, who is not only a jack of all trades, but is mastering each one. He is an artist, trader and co-founder of the DGEN's product. We start this conversation off with lessons and triad-fi that he needed to unlearn when entering crypto the importance of timing when it comes to releasing art, what success looks like for web-three, native products and much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guest may own NFTs discussed. Now grab some coffee and let's dive into this conversation with OSF. Alright, man, gm, good morning, I guess. Good evening to you, osf. How are you man?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm good man. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, doing well it's. You know, the last time we were going to record it was like super dark and rainy and thunderstorming outside, and today I can't not keep the light in, so I can't keep the light out. I should say so it's going better, man.
Speaker 2:But how about you? Yeah, not too bad. Unfortunately, it's pretty dark and rainy here. It's been a horrible day, but that's just the way it is this time of the year in London say.
Speaker 1:Is it? I mean, here's the thing Like I'm from Texas or that's where I'm based out of, and I, you know, I feel like you always want what you can't have. But, man, I'll tell you like, here in Texas we had a, you know, fungi's on our team, so he's like our Celsius guy, so I always try to convert units, so it'll be perfect for this we had. We had like three months where it was the minimum or the high was around 40 to 42 degrees Celsius and it was like that for two to three months was in no rain. It literally burnt up all the grass. I'm just like dude, I just want to. I want like three months of rain.
Speaker 2:So wow, that's wild. I mean, we had that last year for like one week. To have that for two or three months, that's just insane. I got it.
Speaker 1:It was brutal. So what, what, what? What I'm basically saying is you guys brought the cool weather to Marfa. When you guys came there, it was nice. It was nice, yeah, man. But dude, yeah, what I want to just thank you for coming on a long time and my first time caller, you know, you know love what you guys do with Rugg Radio. It's been cool to kind of go back into your journey and like, look what you've done with you know with Rack Guy, you know with D gens, with what you're what. What's your currently doing with both? I should say, and it was really cool to like catch up on on the podcast you did with these. I think it was back in April, yeah, it was really cool.
Speaker 1:Like unpack that whole journey and it's wild to like hear that conversation a couple of months afterwards. Man, yeah, but yeah, dude, just happy to have you on, and which kind of like love to just you know something that I know you guys picked up on. You know you guys kind of like we. What I learned from this story with these is a lot about some of the web three journey, but if you're comfy sharing any of this, like would love to kind of know, like, like where you got first, like where you first started with art, like you know what was one of maybe your first experiences with art, maybe even before web three.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure. So I think most people in web three know me as someone who, like, picked up art after, like, I started trading crypto, after started collecting entities, and maybe nobody's like, oh, this is a former trader, a banker, who like moving to art, but actually art was probably one of the first things I did like as a kid. Like my family and extended family are quite artistic and that's that's definitely something that's run through the family and pretty much as a kid, like I always used to draw things, like I was always good at art at school and drawing and painting, which is something that I just did all the time. When I was younger, when I turned like 13 or 14, and we got like broadband and sent all that kind of stuff, he spent a lot of time online and then I got into making digital art as well, and back then there wasn't any crypto or NFTs or anything, so but there was like this big, a big online art community. Still it was called DV and art back then, which is, you know, maybe some people are familiar with definitely a blast from the past, but I used to make a lot of stuff then and and post it there as well and I was active in all that the online art forums and stuff. It really wasn't that dissimilar to the way things are now. You just didn't have crypto or blockchain or payment mechanism or really an economy for it.
Speaker 2:But that was always just something I did like in my spare time because I enjoyed it and never really thought I would have a career in it or or that it would be something that I would do to make money or whatever. But it's just something that I just enjoyed doing in my spare time and then, yeah, I guess, like after I went to university and studied maths and went to career finance, just stopped doing it. Really it's kind of a bit. It just wasn't until COVID when I first painted something. For ages. Like man, I haven't done anything creative for like 15 years. It's pretty wild. But yeah, the art side of things you know straight from being a kid. Really it was always one of my favorite pastimes, I would say.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. It's really cool to hear that, and I take it that you probably kind of had that moment I'm guessing we're probably around the same age, you know but where growing up it was like arts, like one of these things where it's like it's cool but also you kind of need to get a real job, type of type of yeah absolutely, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that kind of that kind of makes sense where it's like, okay, you understood math, you understood like there was a bigger opportunity to be had with, with trading, and then it kind of makes sense that art just kind of went by the wayside. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense, man, I feel like you know, I can relate to a little, and not necessarily in the craft of it, but I guess I always enjoyed art as a kid, you know, and then I never really pursued it. I feel like that would have been a fun, you know, university course to pursue or fun degree to pursue. But at the you know, the time, especially in the 90s and early 2000s, it was like it's like you should not do that, it's not, it's not a good future, like it's not just like if you be prepared to struggle, if, if that's like really what you want to do and I, you know, I was, I was raised really well and the idea of struggling was not something I really enjoyed, you know, fair enough.
Speaker 2:Fake on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But. But as a kid, though, my mom would take me to museums, she would enrich me in culture and you know, I was talking about this in a space yesterday but, like, I found a like, I just randomly wanted a Leonardo da Vinci like print. You know, it wasn't even the Mona Lisa, but it was one of his other ones and it you're my mom was just like you've always had, you know, the, the eye for it and the and the ear for it, so it's just really interesting. You know, I can.
Speaker 1:What I'm basically trying to say is that it's it's it kind of sucks that it happened that way, but I feel like that's also why, you know, this space makes so much sense. You know, feels like a good opportunity here. But, speaking of trading, you know, so, like you, you had a pretty stored career that I know it's where you met Mando. It's like you guys are kind of like this duo with. As someone who, so just some context, as someone who came into the space with really no trading background, I didn't really give two shits about trading until I learned about crypto, until you could like put culture on on, you know, until you could trade culture, I guess. I guess it's. Yeah, was there anything that, like you've had to unlearn from traditional finance when coming into crypto?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot, you know. I think you know some of the concepts still hold. It's like you should have stop losses, you should learn to take profits along the way, you should understand the factors that affect your positioning and and understand the risk and all those kind of things. But I think the main thing that was different and the thing that you have to unlearn really is like in the traditional world, you are taught to think about valuation from like a model driven or a fundamental basis where it's like these are five different things and if all those things spit out like certain numbers or certain outputs, then it implies the price should be here and that's like generally the way you're trained to think. And then maybe I guess where the edges is, like youth. He's like you know, I think this company is going to have high costs or like lower earnings in the next quarter because of this and that's going to impact this. And that was like your thought process Got it and it was like, you know, if something didn't have cash flows, if something, an entity didn't produce cash flows, then you would be like, oh, this isn't really worth anything, like there's no real fundamental value there, and I think that's the part I had to unlearn. That's why I was like cryptoskeptic for so many years, like I had had about Bitcoin for years. I just never wanted to touch it because I was like I just don't really understand like how you can value it, like where does the value come from? And over time, it has.
Speaker 2:You know it's still a very nascent asset class, obviously, but over time we've started to understand and see the different factors that affect Bitcoin prices and crypto prices and now you can say, like you know these are the different risk factors and things that could affect this value, but it's still like it's value is just like what people deem it to be. You know what I mean. It's like what a bunch of people decided it's going to be. And I think that's the bit you have to really unlearn for crypto and for NFTs, because you realize it's still a very small market. I mean, crypto market cap right now is at 1.3, 1.4 trillion dollars, which is tiny. If you think about BlackRock and their Bitcoin ETF, like BlackRock manages 10 trillion dollars alone and it's like 10 times 10 times a total. You know market cap crypto. So it's still a very, very small market and you just have to you know you have to treat things like that in a different way, I think, and that was the biggest thing for me- Got you.
Speaker 1:And that makes a lot of sense, because I always hear people joke about. You know, when people are trading shitcoins like, oh, it's the fundamentals, you know why it's the team, it's the fundamentals of why I like it and it's like the fundamentals of that, the number is going up, you know.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah, it's literally it. Like that is basically it. You have to understand that it's a different. It's a weird thing. I think, like you know, we start to see this with meme stocks and GameStop and stuff like that. Like, I used to actually trade GameStop, I didn't trade the, I traded the bonds and, like our analysts was like always bearish on GameStop and we were always bearish as a bank on GameStop, and then you saw the equity price going to like crazy levels and we're like this makes no sense because, like because of this, this and this and it doesn't really matter. Like it doesn't matter if it makes no sense. If enough people get together and buy it and if people are short, then the technicals are going to outweigh the fundamentals, and I think that's what crypto is. I think Crypto's actually, in my opinion, more about technicals than it is about fundamentals, and I think sometimes the price moves first and then the narrative comes afterwards, and that's that's my view of it Interesting.
Speaker 1:I was about to ask you like, what do you mean by the technicals you know? Is it, is that just solely price, or is there, is there like more to that?
Speaker 2:I think there's more to it. You know it can be things like you know what's the market ratio of longs versus shorts? Like what's the funding rates right now Got it? Are there like big sellers or big buyers in the market? You know, is BlackRock buying crypto going to create a large buying technical for it? Like it's those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:Rather than, like you know, I see a lot of people who are like, oh, like you know, if you're something on ETH, you know like ETH transactions are slow and like the TVL on this chain is very low and that's why it shouldn't be that high and all that kind of stuff. It's like, at the end of the day, like, is that the reason why people are buying? Not really, like most people are just buying because they try to catch a trade or catch momentum, and I think that's what I mean. Like sometimes it's not always about like how good a certain L1 is, or like Even how funny a certain meme is. It's like more to do with Are there loads of buyers of it for some random reason? And that's what I think, what you have to be wary of, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that random reason is really baffling to figure out, because when I talked to my mom about, or I talked to my just my family in general about this, they, they have like zero clue, because it feels like it shatters a lot of like a Lot of the investment principles, a lot of like what they, because they invested in a lot of stocks, so, like they, they've done pretty well in the stock market and it's like this just makes, you know, absolutely no sense to them. You know, because it's like where, where is the information coming from? What is the thing that is making this go up? Because it it's kind of counterintuitive. But one thing the through line that I really kind of want to touch on here is it's this idea of like, if enough people get together and say something, then it is. You know exactly.
Speaker 1:It took me, it took me a really long time to learn that with the dollar, and I'm like, why is the dollar, dollar like, why does the dollar have the value that dollar has? Well, it's just because a bunch of people agreed that it has that value and it it's very similar to you, though, like when I first like came around to Bitcoin, it was like I don't understand. Like I get it kind of, but I also don't because I don't know where you're supposed to spend this. I don't know why the number is going up like that makes no fucking sense to me, you know. And then I understood like ETH and NFTs were really what helped it make sense to me because that was finally something I could spend the money on. It was like, okay, cool, I have ETH, I can spend it on pictures and that's really like my. That was like my whole introduction to crypto and it was like one of the easiest. It was one of the easiest interests, you know, yeah, yeah, so it is. It is super interesting to kind of hear you, hear you talk about that and when it comes to you know, like when it comes to the, the unlearning process and what you know, kind of what, what that looks like.
Speaker 1:But I also think that this is an interesting topic because this is like this whole thing democratized and we've seen the benefits of this. You know, we also seem like the horrendous side effects of when you democratize trading to everybody. I always kind of wondered you know, why are there so many? You know on one half I could.
Speaker 1:There's a bit of duality here where I can see both sides. I can see why the, the trading industry, has a lot of regulations, or why it started out having a bunch of regulations, because this shit's not really easy and like people can just leverage a hundred long and lose their life savings. You know, I don't know where and in a sense I can see where having laws and rules like were really helpful In the beginning, but now I don't really see it the same way. But it's also kind of interesting to see this and come in and kind of just destroy every rule, that that, whether it was the SEC or whether you know when the SEC was born and I kind of.
Speaker 1:It's just a fascinating topic to like see what this is both done like both positive and negative around. You know how people like spend their money. On one hand, it's given people like us an opportunity to like make a living, but also, on the other hand, you look at like Celsius, you look at, you know, you look at what's the other one? I'm yeah, yeah, yeah, voyager, you know. And also the, the stablecoin, you know, yeah, why am I just completely blanking on?
Speaker 1:that UST yeah you know, yeah, it's just, it's just an interesting topic to see, like the both the good and the bad of that, and I guess you know From from your perspective, like, do you view this is like? What do I, I, what do you think like is gonna take for? Is it gonna take for like this, to kind of become not necessarily the entity side, but more in the trading side, more, I guess what's the word I'm looking for? Attractive, because right now it just seems so volatile. It seems like there's so much risk, you know, but I feel like there's also so much opportunity in defy, you know. But defy is one of the areas I just don't know much about, you know, just something being perfect, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I think there is extremely high risk in the space because it's so volatile. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I think a lot of retail participants shy away from it, but I think it's also one of the reasons why a lot of people get in because there really isn't any other asset class right now when you can make a hundred X or a thousand X or whatever you know. I mean, people are making so much money and you know you could say, maybe in the bear market, maybe last year, there's not really loads of people that made loads of money, like some people did. But 2021, like everyone made shit ton of money on NFT, crypto, everything like the entire market was crazy and you just cannot replicate these kinds of returns in Any other market and the ones that you can, so maybe like VC investments and angel investing, that kind of stuff like they're not liquid. You can't just like buy something and sell it the next day and make that return in the space of a few days, right, whereas you can in this market and yeah, exactly. So I think like you're only gonna get those kinds of returns while the market stays the way it is, where it's like very Retail-based, there aren't. There isn't much regulation, there's like not many rules, and You're gonna have a lot of things that go up, a lot of things that will go down a lot eventually, especially after you know these ETFs are approved, etc. Eventually you'll start to have more regulation of this industry and it's it's a good thing in that it will actually bring in more money into the space. I think you will have, you know, high net worth individuals who maybe Start to feel more comfortable when they realize it's regulated. You'll have institutions that will feel more comfortable and it's more regulated or bring in a lot of money into the space. But what will happen is that these crazy returns, they will start to go lower, because, yeah, that's just what happens when, whenever you get more participants, and especially when you get more, you know smarter players into the space. So I think I Think it's gonna.
Speaker 2:I think that's the way it's heading, I think that's the way we're gonna end up and I think what that will mean is that you'll just have like Start you the volatility will start to come out of crypto because you'll have much stronger hands and you know much more stable holders. But it would just be like the equity market like you'll have. You know, you the, the big cap stocks won't be very volatile. Then you have penny stocks, which will move around loads and that would just be the same thing, like majors and shitcoins and crypto.
Speaker 2:If it isn't already like that, yeah, I think that's the way it's going, so it's, which is fine. I think you just had to be prepared for it, position for it. But I think what that does mean is, I think, just like when that happens, the prices of everything are a lot higher. So, like, while ETH well, eth is like like a 250 billion dollar market cap or wherever it is, it's going to be volatile, but one day, when it's like a one trillion dollar plus market cap, it's going to be Much more stable. So the price will be higher but the volatility will be a lot lower.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I feel like that's. I'm glad you touched on that, because I feel like that's something I've had in the back of my mind Like I need to figure out how to like maximize the opportunity I have now, because I know, because if I do believe in like, the tough part is that because, like, I really believe in what we're building here, but it's like, also, if I do believe in that that much, then I I believe that it needs to be used by everyone, or as many people as possible, but also means less opportunity for the opportunistic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, it's a double-edged sword.
Speaker 1:It's like, fuck man, like you want it to go there, but you also. There's also a party that like doesn't because other, because if we don't, then this is just the biggest gambling Ponzi scheme that there ever was. You know, yeah, yeah, it's a double-edged sword. So do you how? I mean, I guess this is just a wild prediction, I'm not gonna hold you to it, but do you think how many more cycles do you think before we get to that point? Like, do you think it's like one or two more cycles, or three to four, or like, because it just it feels like it's close, but it also feels very far away.
Speaker 2:I think it's closer than we realize and I think, okay, okay, I think this, the ETF stuff, is so important because, yeah, you're getting like two of the Largest asset managers in the world basically entering crypto. Yeah, and it's not just Bitcoin, like they apply for the ETH one, and that's just the start of, like, I think, many, many things to come. So it doesn't happen overnight, it doesn't happen during one cycle, but I think, you know, in four years time, this space is gonna look very different. I think it's gonna look very, very different and it's gonna be quite financialized.
Speaker 2:And I think people say Bitcoin maxi will say you know, these are removing the Ideologies and fundamentals of Bitcoin, all that kind of stuff. And if trad fight gets in, it's no longer like this big decentralized asset class, which is what it was meant to be. But you know you can't, these guys gonna come in because there's so much money to be made and you can't. There's nothing you can really do to stop that. Like. The idea of it being decentralized also means that you can't just like block people from coming in. Yeah, and yes, I think honestly, I think by the end of this cycle, things are a very different structure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I Totally think so, and you're. I think we're already starting to see a bit of that change, like the market is, in a lot of different ways, starting to mature. But I guess that kind of brings me to like what you guys are building at DGNs. You know, like, so you Definitely like, you've had quite the journey here and I feel I think it's really awesome that like it's a hundred percent community, you know, like it's a hundred percent organic, you know, and you built, you guys built this from the ground up, kind of having the bottom-up approach, you know, or instead of the top-down, where everything just funnels back to the original supporters of what you guys did.
Speaker 1:I guess you know from a term, from from that lens, from the builder lens, you know, put on that hat for a little bit. You know what is, I guess, what, what is it that you guys are building for? Like it Is there. When it comes to, like the future, what does success look like really for DGNs, you know, maybe when it does start to mature in four to five years? Do you kind of have that vision planned up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think we. The idea was that we wanted to create something that people found useful and I think, you know, back when NFC trading was very active, you could have all these like alpha groups and pay groups on that kind of stuff and really it was just like people showing stuff and pumping dumps and they're not really great for people entering the market. So I think we wanted to create and build something that was like informational, where it wasn't like hey, I think you know, go out there and buy cool cats or sell deadfellas or whatever. It was more like these are the positives and negatives of each project. And here's this big like statistical, quantitative, like toolkit you can use to help you analyze and make the decisions, and then you can go out there and make this decisions for yourself.
Speaker 2:So I think the idea was really like Educate people, like how to become their own trader and like come to their own decisions and and it was, you know, meant to be for the NFT market and obviously I think by the time we built everything out and I'm just gonna crash so just, we just didn't really get like, yeah, the hits of the, the viewership that I think we would have liked and that's just like a macro thing. There's not really much we can do about it, but, you know, it's just like. I think we want to have Like this toolkit or a platform or a hub that people can use to get cleared up on, and maybe it's not just NFC, maybe it's crypto and maybe something much larger, but something that's just, is very unbiased and objective and that is like informational to combat All the, I think, like misinformation there is out there and bad actors that are on the space, etc. Etc.
Speaker 1:Totally. What is that? Is that you think is the is like the misinformation. Do you think that's like the biggest challenge, or what do you guys view as like the biggest challenge for you guys achieving that goal?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I think the biggest challenge is there's probably lots of other like data providers or or Research providers and all that kind of stuff out there. I think, to be honest with you, the biggest challenge is if someone is like, hey, I'm not sure if they join my pay group. We all made like 300% this shitcoin last week. Someone is much more likely to join that and they are like our thing. I think that's the biggest challenge. But I Think we are quite adamant that we're not trying like hype things and play hype cycles to get those people on, have loads of people Disappoints and that kind of stuff thing. If we just create like a steady ship that's there and that's feel somewhere evergreen, that I think it's gonna be something that will be meaningful over a longer period of time, rather than like hey, this is a great pay group in like summer 2021, but now it's no way, sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Totally. I mean, it sounds like what you guys are building for is kind of the future that we talked about just a bit ago, where it's like maybe and you know, four to five to ten years or however long it takes for the market to mature, it's like it feels like you guys would be like the perfect landing spot. You know what I mean. Yeah, it's like. It's like we've been doing this, we've been do it. We've resisted the, you know the pump it up, paid groups. We've resisted the, the quick opportunity. It's like it just seems like a sturdy product that you guys aren't really in too much of a rush to build, but it's more about, like, the thoughtfulness of like that goes, that goes into it. You know what I mean. Yeah, it's not necessarily about the cadence, but it's about like is this right or is? Are people gonna gain something from it? Yeah, a question I had about this. You know, cousin, kind of, as we're on the same beat around.
Speaker 1:Like you know, there's a lot of different data providers, a lot of people doing. You know, similar things. There's a lot of you know, especially even in the traditional finance. You know finance market. How do you like, I guess, how do you view competition. You know, like, how do you guys view? Do you guys view, do you guys viewed as competition? Do you guys like just kind of like put the, put the blinders on and like not really focused on that. Just very curious Kind of see, like what your perspective is on that.
Speaker 2:I don't really view any other parts of the space of competition.
Speaker 2:I think the nice thing about web 3 is people see more. You get to collaborate rather than compete, I think, and Whether you're just like a pfp project or a date provider, wherever, I think everyone knows each other, so not really worried about composition. I think my view is like whatever you create or you build has to be Community first, and even if you're building a product, you kind of the best products have a community around then. So, yeah, we have our community and we have a very loyal community and you know, I think if we roll stuff out or we bring stuff, we will get support from that community if we do a good job. And if we don't do a good job, then we'll lose that community. So I'm not like you know. Yes, maybe if you have like a very specific product and then like someone else makes one that is like Much, much better and cheaper and faster than you might lose people, but you'll always have a loyal following who'll stick by the stuff that you're doing. I think that's the most important thing. That's whatever you I think.
Speaker 1:And I feel like we're starting to get back to that. You know, I'll admit Number one I like, I feel like that's the approach that anyone I feel like anyone who not only Started it, you know, kind of like was in the bear market, but kind of built and survived the bear market I feel like that's kind of the similar approach as well as like there was just a kind of a kind of more of a backwards play. It's like we're gonna we're gonna toss it all back into community, like especially right now, because it just makes it just makes too much sense. We want to reward people that are still here because, like reality was like this year, like in a little bit of last year, was really hard and this being my first, this is like my first time around and I know you've been through a few, but I feel like this was a really, really tough one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I agree that. I agree with that for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, well, it makes. It makes a lot of sense, you know, and and I feel like the point of that was saying like I feel like we're kind of getting back to that spirit of collaboration that Was there when I necessarily came here, because I came here in like March of 20, you know, 2021, like a lot of different people, and it I remember kind of it being a haven of like wow, like this just kind of feels comfy. You know, like it what the bull wasn't like quite there, but you could tell the bear market was over, you know, and there was just like people were putting out informational threads and like most the information I could trust and it just seemed like really genuine and wholesome. Like wow, we don't really need to like compete against each other. Like this just feels.
Speaker 1:When you look at like the rest of Twitter outside of this little bubble, I think I think it was a DCL blogger that talked about her DCL investor was like you know, we're at that point where I look at anything outside of crypto Twitter and it's like incredibly polarizing. It's people at each other's throats and it's like, while we do kind of have a bubble and sometimes a bubble can be unhealthy it's like right now. It's one of those times where it's like, yeah, like this is just great, yeah, man, but kind of like, kind of like switching hats to switching hats to to art. I know you, I want to, I want to follow. I'm gonna ask a follow-up question on Something you did, something you said with these at the time you were, you were like you kind of had your day all the way.
Speaker 1:You're basically working until like nine or ten o'clock at night and you really had not really much time, you know, for your art. Has that? Have you guys made any changes? Like have you brought any more people on board? Have you found ways to like light and load in your and your day-to-day, you know, to kind of get some more time back?
Speaker 2:I think so. Yeah, I think I'm. You know, the first half the year is like going to loads of different NFT events and, you know, doing rug radio and podcast and all this kind of stuff, and I was like man, just like doing all this, all these things, I'm not having enough time to create and draw. And I think when I got the summer, I just put a hole in everything. I was like, look, I'm not gonna do, I'm just gonna keep things very simple, like I'm just gonna do rug radio and I'm just gonna Draw, I'm just gonna like have a chilled summer. Because I think I just had a moment. I just got Too much for me. I think I was just doing like so many different things and I knew that I just had to put it back a bit and just reset. So I can't take the sound to do that. And you know, now coming back and the end of august, september, like I feel like I've Much more streamlined and things that want to do and I want to create and I'm making art more for priority or focus and I really have to.
Speaker 2:You know, it's very easy to get distracted because, like I'm never I never used to be like okay, from this time to this time I'm just gonna be drawing. Where is like usually what you do is you make, you know you'll, I'm a phone calls, a podcast, meeting, stuff. You put me in calendar, but glad to be that this time and do this for 30 minutes, to do this for an hour, whatever, and you go through and follow through because it's in your calendar and you're gonna do it. But right, I was never like that for me. I didn't.
Speaker 2:Because it's a bit weird, is you can't be like I'm gonna schedule like 2pm to 4pm. I can't draw for those two hours because it doesn't really work for me when it's forced, only works when I feel like doing it and yeah, and still inspired. So it's been a bit more difficult thing. But why you try and do is like you know, like fridays I just try and keep it light on the phone calls and podcast, I just spend time drawing then and you know, in the evening so as well, and just try and make it more focus. You know like just In my head, be like, okay, this isn't just like a secondary thing that I'm doing when I have a bit of time, it's like make time for it Totally and I feel like that's a big like.
Speaker 1:I feel like you touched on a really important topic here. Words, it was it. There's just so many ways to get a dopamine hit here and it's, it's rich and there. You know, and there's a lot of different things that need to be done and there's a lot of different ways to like, find opportunities, a lot of different ways to participate. You know, and I found myself chronically online, especially during the bull run, but I think that kind of what you're touching on is like it's so easy to, but it's also.
Speaker 1:I also kind of find the topic of constraints when it comes to creativity really interesting. You know, you mentioned like you know now you kind of get to block time off from that. Do you find there's like this is kind of a backwards question to it, because there's? Do you find that there's a difference, positive or negative? Let's just go with like, maybe positive, is there a positive To your are a positive impact on your art when you kind of had not really a lot of time versus when you actually schedule time out, you know, because I feel like there's a balance between everything. But is there, have you, did you notice any positives versus then, versus now. I think what did it teach you?
Speaker 2:I guess is that probably the better, is probably better question yeah, I think it's just a really tough one with up, because even Even now, sometimes, when it's like when I schedule time for it, if I have something that I'm working on, I have an idea I've already come up with the idea I know what I'm doing. Scheduling time for is like super productive and it makes a big impact. Sure, but when it's a moment in time where, like, I don't know what I'm doing and I want to create something, but I don't know what Is I'm creating, or we got bored of the thing that I've been working on, schedule in time for doesn't work because it's just like I should do this time, but now I don't really feel like doing the thing I was working on and I don't know what to draw, and that's the annoying thing. Yeah, that's the thing I find tricky sometimes and Is usually like the best, my best, I think, of the things I'm always happy, the most happiest with, always the ones like I didn't schedule time, make time for it.
Speaker 2:I just happen to have some time and I just happen to have an idea and it felt spontaneous and organic. I just went there and drew it as a man. That came out really well like, but you just, it's really hard to come by that and I guess you can't just like depend on that. I want that you know, if I didn't have any other obligations or Think I'm not obligated to the wrong way, if it didn't have any other things that, like, I enjoyed working on, then it'd be really easy to achieve the whole time.
Speaker 1:But Is that?
Speaker 2:because I have my fingers and lost different pies. So, yeah, I don't know like it's back and forth, really like I think the way that come around is like I might just have a really good idea at some point in time and I'll write it down, can't start working on it. Then I can make some time to work on it and at least the idea is already there. So I kind of know what I'm doing. I'm on Assert some track, and I think that's that's what helps for sure the most I think it makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1:you know it, because I yeah and I'm glad you touch on that, because there's definitely certain elements even to like what I do, where it's like I found that having a really tight constraint window was actually really good for me to help make creative decisions faster. You know, it kind of forced me, I'm like what it could. Sometimes I have a problem with being honest with my decisions, you know it's like why am I doing something? Or, like you know, sometimes just overthink it when it really doesn't need to be over thought, you know, and it's like I already know what I want, but I'm like I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm piecing it together like you know, 69 different ways, when it really doesn't need to be.
Speaker 1:Having some of that stress has, like it's not always been beneficial, but there's been times where it has. You know, it's like damn, like when I'm really forced to make a decision, like I show up for it, you know. So it's really interesting to hear that, yeah, and I think it's a valuable. I think it's a valuable lesson, you know, but kind of like moving to kind of on the same beat as as art. You know, it's you Something. It just an observation that I noticed is that you have this like, really Like that the work, when, when you put out the work, it almost feels like it's, it's almost like just like the cannon of the space. It almost kind of feels like immediately, it feels like it hits right at the right time, whether it's a one-of-one, whether it's an addition, whether it's you know, whether it's the wreck IPP projects. It almost just kind of feels so In line with current events. You know.
Speaker 1:I guess what I'd love to like know is, when it comes to creating pieces like that, like it let's just you know the, you know came over what the piece exactly is called, but the, the degen with all the screens. You know there's, like you predicted the, the, the terror lunatic. I heard the FTX collapse. You, there was a few like little head nods and they're about, you know Just things about the space that were happening. I guess how long does it take to take for you to create a piece and like, when it comes to telling the story, like, how do you, how do you approach storytelling? I guess is the better is the long way of answering asking that question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it depends like pieces can take a great something within Four or five hours sometimes, and then sometimes it can take me a few days. It just depends on the complexity of the piece and the idea is behind it and sometimes, like I might have an idea and I have one runner or a second run, it just doesn't really come out the way that I like and when that happens I just put it to the side and come revisit it after a few weeks or a few months and then have another go and then maybe get it Right, like on the third or fourth attempt. So it's kind of a gray area. I don't really have a set time for how long it takes things, but I think the timing you something that you touch upon those, the timing of things at the timing of wreck guy at the time You're set to one of ones.
Speaker 2:I think that's one of the most important things. Like when you bring out a piece that is maybe a commentary on current affairs or a meme of it or whatever it is, you want to make sure that it's timed Right, so it's most impactful. And if you miss, if you're too early, then you know not enough people care about it. If too late, people will you know we'll think oh, that was so last week, whatever. So you have to, you do really have time things perfectly. And then sometimes that means, like you know, if I have this good idea, I think it's like fits the current vogue, then I have to work really fast and really quick and just devote time to it to get it out on time a thing.
Speaker 2:And Sometimes the timing so sometimes the timing is is like deliberate. Sometimes the timing is just random, like for wreck guy, it was never like let's get it done by this time in time. For, like the big crash, it was just it just took me months, a month to create and, yeah, by the time we got it out, it just happened to be that it came right with a mark crash and they kind of just worked pretty well. So you know, sometimes you get lucky with timing, I think, and when you could do get lucky, I think that's when the timing is the best because, again, it feels the most organic, doesn't feel forced, and I think that's when things do turn out to be very special and there's no real way to like plan for that. You just have to, you know, bring things out when they feel right in your gut and just hope that the time improves to be good.
Speaker 1:Totally man. Yeah, because it feels. Yeah, there's definitely a sense. Yeah, especially professional DJ and just a few other people with right, a few other ones with wreck guys. It's.
Speaker 1:It's often kind of hard to explain to people like how that works, but it's just like it happens when it, you know, happens when it's supposed to and sometimes you just get. Yeah, sometimes you do get lucky, but I, as someone who you know, a shiller, were around artists a lot, you know, and and marketing and timing and storytelling often comes up as a big topic conversation because a lot of artists we chat with you know like the art is. You know there's no question that the arts phenomenal, but when it comes to the, the impact of it, when it comes to the ability to like time it right, or when it comes to Whether it's using the right tools or the right marketing outlet or the right, you know how to, how to really communicate it in a really thoughtful way, that really lands is often just like one of the hardest things I feel, or one of the one of the questions we get asked. You know the most you know as it, just as a marketing company, and I think you just outlined it beautifully right there.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, dude, yeah, it just hits. And I got asked, maybe kind of as we're wrapping up some of the art talk, is you know, glitches really, you know it just really fits, you know what you do? And and I guess the the question I have is, like, was there always, just like Even before crypto was glitched, something that was part of your DV and art portfolio? Or was glitch kind of something that came as a result of kind of playing in the in the crypto space? I think?
Speaker 2:the stuff that I used to make 15, 20 years ago was not animated. There are static things, and I think it was just because the tools I mean the tools existed to make animated gifts and stuff. But it was much harder than it was now. And you know, I remember like I was always good at drawing and I wanted to draw digitally, but to do that you had to buy like this crazy expensive graphics tablet that was like two grand or whatever, and you know I just didn't have that kind of money, like when I was like 12 years old or whatever. So I started draw things with my mouse and I just like I just Doesn't look as good as I wanted it to be, whereas now it's like you can just do things on an iPad. And when I came back to like creating stuff digitally, I was like wow, like there's so many things that I can do now and I've like unlocked all the different areas of creativity and ideas that I used to have but couldn't ever really execute and and now I can.
Speaker 2:And In this idea of glitch and animated stuff, look, I think I Never like made glitch art when I was like 13 or 14 or 15 and Glitch art obviously was like popularized by X copy and it became like this big drama with encrypted, and those were definitely Influences on me.
Speaker 2:Like I like I'm a huge fan of X copy and I wanted to create things similar because I just thought it was so cool, and I think that's how I kind of like Started by thinking about it. But no, as time goes on and you kind of just like come into your own in the way that you create your pieces and the way that I might animate things or the other stories that come from it, I think, just become quite personal to you and you just develop into your own type of artists. I think so. I think like the themes of my art now versus 15 years ago are probably quite similar and Maybe even some of the pieces don't look that different actually, but the stuff now is just much more visually striking because there are so many more tools I can use that allow me to create things more efficiently and and you know, in a way that I think Produces something that I have in my head that I can actually not create, that I couldn't before. I think.
Speaker 1:That's incredible and kind of on that, you know, and I I Can appreciate the breakdown because I feel like it's it's all, it's just the common, you know, it's just, it's just as things grow, like things get a lot easier and I feel like there's a lot of, even as someone who's not artistically it's you know, who's never like really considered themselves an artist or like really had the tools to do so, like I was Terrible at drawing as a kid, you know, and just not drawing and painting, we're kind of like the only things that were really available. I think, just with the suite of tools is almost impossible to not, you know, have at least a little bit of curiosity. So, kind of on the same beat, though, when it comes to AI, you know, as a tool, that kind of is democratizing creativity, like, how do you, as an artist, specifically, how do you view that? Like, have you started to explore that in your work? Have you started? Has there been any challenges? And kind of overcoming that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I personally haven't used it yet because I think the reason why my art looks the way it does is because of the way I draw it and the way I animate and Doing things in a way that's maybe not conventional, different. And I think if I used AI to generate a piece of it, if I did, did it in a way that would save me time, it wouldn't look the same, I wouldn't feel the same.
Speaker 2:Like, for example, when I animate I don't use, I literally just like draw, like different, like frames, as like a flipbook style animation thing and something that can take me ages If it's something where it's like you know, a character doing something can be like 30 or 40, 50 frames, that's like shade each thing, and it takes me so long to do. And I know for a fat life I use like Adobe After effects or illustrator whatever. Like I could probably create that character and, you know, animate it and it would save me so much time. But I just don't think I would get the same like visual final product if I use that and that's very adamant about just doing things in this way. So I haven't really explored AI.
Speaker 2:I'm not against AI. I think there's a lot of artists who will hate on AI and just thinking this isn't real art or whatever. But I think, in my opinion, I think lots of people out there have amazing ideas and inspiration and are creative, but maybe they're not good painter or not good drawer or wherever it is. But AI now allows you to put those ideas to life, which I think is actually pretty amazing. It's the same thing you might be someone who's a really good songwriter but you're not a good singer, right Right. But you can write a good song and have someone else perform it and then it can be a hit. So would you say that songwriter is not talented? No, you would say they are talented. Then maybe there's not just a good singer, but they have the ability to think of good ideas and be inspired. So I think we shouldn't just hate completely on AI stuff, but there are levels of things within this.
Speaker 1:I would say oh, yeah, it's a much more like, but I think you covered it in a really great way for the amount of time that we have, because I feel like that could be an entire podcast. I know Lex Friedman does a lot of podcasts on AI and a lot of different people do as well. But, yeah, it's cool to hear your thought behind it and it almost sounds like you found your process, especially drawing on the iPad, where it's like it's kind of just like the most confided. It feels like that's almost as much part of the process as the final output. It's like just enjoying the actual medium that you're using. Well, cool, man, this is awesome.
Speaker 1:As I know, we're kind of coming up on the hour here, but as we kind of wrap things up, we'd love to kind of take a step back or a step out a little bit of your world in crypto. What is your family and significant other think about what you're doing here? Do you find it hard to explain to them? Do they have any thoughts? We'd love to kind of know, maybe, how Thanksgiving dinner or the holidays go with you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think at first I think they were like what the hell is all the stuff that you're doing? I think I still find it difficult to explain it to them sometimes. But I think now that's been around for a while and it's hit the headlines I've seen desire can bring, I think they're kind of like on board with it. But yeah, at the beginning it was just like what the fuck is going on here. But fortunately, I think the people that are close to me are very supportive of it. So, yeah, it's all good. But yeah, I still have a hard time explaining things sometimes, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can imagine because it's I often my family's coming around as well it's getting easier to explain to them. I think really what helped me was that, especially in the beginning, I was not really making good financial decisions and I made a good trade when I was in crypto and then they saw me pay down my debt and they're like okay, so he actually not only made a good trade, but he also used his money responsively, and so that's when they kind of stopped the barrage of attacks and they started coming around to like being a little bit more curious Does your family own? Do they have a wallet set up? They own any of your work?
Speaker 2:My brothers do. Yeah, my brothers too. My parents don't. But yeah, I should definitely set them up for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like it's a good Christmas gift man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, yeah, easy for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah for sure, dude. Oh, I guess I want to. As we're wrapping it up here, I guess we'd love to kind of get a little bit of a peek into the future. You know, is there anything notable that's kind of on the horizon? Whether it's, you know, take the however you want, whether it's like for DGENs, whether it's for REC guy, whether it's for just anything unrelated to those, anything exciting you have coming up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, if you're working on, there's one project I've been working on, for most of this year actually, which will be like a big generative art project. It'll be a free min and haven't quite figured out, like who you know, which pieces you have to hold to get it, but I wanted to make it. Like you know, rec guy was a free min and it was this big free min and it did really well and I really believe in the networking effects you get from doing something like that. So I wanted to do some things similar for this. And yeah, I mean, I started working on it like probably like December last year.
Speaker 2:So I'm still and it's not like I'm doing it every day, but you know, I come back to it here and then and I would love to try and release it by the end of this year, but we'll see how that goes. I'd love to try and tie it, to be honest, but I'd love to try and time it with the NFT market picking up again, because I think it can be very. If I launched this thing like three months ago, normal would have cared, but if I launched it when the NFT market's hot, then I think, you know, hopefully people will be able to make a lot of money on it, which is what I'm trying to achieve with it. So, yeah, definitely stay tuned for that. I think it's something that I'd like to complete and get out over the next two or three months.
Speaker 1:I think, love that and I think there's just really, I think, especially with some of the tools that are coming out, it's really fun to see artists of different genres kind of explore generative art, because generative art, you know, is kind of having its time. It's obviously been an art form for way longer than we, you know, than crypto's ever existed for, but it's really cool to kind of see artists figure out how to make something like where it makes sense to tell the story in a generative way, you know, versus a traditional way. So I really love that man and definitely will stay tuned, I guess. One last question I really wanted to ask this before but I forgot and this topic really brings it up. Well, you know, I saw like a couple, you know it seems like a lot of the posts that, or a lot of the minutes that you put out, like I know the last one got, I think it got bodied, you know.
Speaker 1:So, when it comes to like releasing, you know, I guess, as you've evolved and grown as an artist, you know how do you kind of like, how do you kind of think about, like, making work when you know like and I hate obviously you don't know, but like there's, there's times where, as you, as you've grown, you obviously know the demand is higher every time you release something, and so there's a higher chance of it getting bodied. You know, kind of, how do you think about, you know mints, when you, when you think about releasing them, like whether it's a one of one, whether it's an addition, how do you like really look at what's the word I'm looking for? You know token gating stuff versus making it available to the public? I guess, how do you, how do you bring more people into your work in a more thoughtful way? I guess is the? Is the? Is the good question?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a good question. It's a tough one because, you know, I'm at the stage now where everything I bring out I want to reward existing holders and I want everyone to get you know, keep getting rewarded and keep feeling like they're valued. At the same time, the only way you can grow your community and grow your holder basis by including new people as well. So I think you know, when I do small drops and small mints, I think I'll mainly make them for holders and maybe since I opened up something up to the public. But I think when you do a large one, you have to really think about like.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want to distribute like X percent to my existing community on, distribute like Y percent to like the, the, the whales, or like the one of one holders or the people who've like supports you the most, like from an ETH perspective. And then you want to distribute Z percent to like just the public and find a way to mitigate bots. Whether you just do it by a lullous raffles or whatever it is, find ways to mitigate bots because if you don't have that last component, then you're going to miss out on being able to grow and expand your community. But if you just do a massive public mint without rewarding your existing guides, you're going to lose face very quickly and I think we've seen projects make that mistake and trip up that way this year. So you have to have a bit of both and you have to be very thoughtful and cognizant about how every policy will feel depending on your actions, and then try and conduct your actions with you know, showing that you've actually made those, made those thoughts in your head. I think.
Speaker 1:Totally. That makes a lot of sense, man, and I'm really I'm thanks for kind of, you know, sharing that breakdown, because it's it kind of it's ironically back to the through line that we talked about in the original part of the conversation about you know, like it's great that the opportunity is so volatile and crypto, but it also we need to, like, you know, like part of this, growing is bringing more people in, you know, and that's just kind of the consequence of growth, you know, but it's it is very interesting to see how people toe the line of, because, especially people that have, you know, especially looking at your super rare sales, it's like, you know, those people supported you bigly, you know, and for the longest time. So it's like you can't, you can't, like you have to keep everyone happy, and it's that's it. That's a tough challenge, man.
Speaker 1:So good as you for doing that, because it's got to be tough when you start thinking about it, because there's the creative practice and there's the thoughtfulness of your holders and community, and then there's, you know, then there's like how you want to, how you want to release it. Then there's, you know, I mean, what if I pissed someone off? I mean there's, there's a lot to think about man and I feel like artists in this space wear a lot of different hats and there's a lot more than just creating the art. Because, you know, like, I feel like the irony is that you know, Web through removes the middleman. But I think we're kind of we're starting to come back to like maybe not all middlemen were bad, like a good chunk of them probably were, you know, but some of them provided some real value here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, yeah so but cool man.
Speaker 1:Well, this has been, this has been a phenomenal time and thanks again for spending that. I think I got you out like five minutes before. I feel like I did. I feel like I did really good there.
Speaker 2:You did good. Appreciate that.
Speaker 1:You got it, man. Well, hey, dude, just hang out for just a little bit afterwards, so it finishes uploading. But this has been a great time, man, and I hope you have a great rest of your evening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, awesome, you too, thanks a lot for having me. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Shuler curated podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. As we close that today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the curated podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly Twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, at Shiller XYZ. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remember if you're looking for it. Art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time, this is Böhne signing off.