Join us, as we unravel many different universal mysteries our special guest, tjo. His art speaks volumes about the power of storytelling, with his unique blue rooms and the profound concept of "For the, fractured". We also explore how art amalgamates with psyche, dissecting the roles of museums and auction houses in the fine art world.
We dig deeper into the complex interplay of art, mental health, and societal perceptions of 'fractured' individuals. Tjo shares his experiences of the societal pressures and the stigma of mental health, while we also traverse the emerging world of cryptocurrency and. The story doesn't end here. Tjo takes us through his journey of self-discovery after he dropped - "Bleu", which was an art piece that sparked conversation in Web3 for over a month!
As we transition towards the future of art, we delve into the impact of AI and emerging technologies on the traditional definition of art. We make a case for the indispensable role of the artist's unique perspective, something that machines can't replicate. We also discuss the symbiotic relationship between daily art and social media, the potential opportunities with NFTs, and how he is leveraging art to raise awareness for Alzheimer's disease. Our journey with tjo has been nothing short of a revelation, and we can't wait for you to join us on this exploration of art, mind, and society. Tune in, and let's unravel the beauty and complexity of art together.
tjo links:
Website: https://www.tjo.art/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/0xTjo
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
Join us, as we unravel many different universal mysteries our special guest, tjo. His art speaks volumes about the power of storytelling, with his unique blue rooms and the profound concept of "For the, fractured". We also explore how art amalgamates with psyche, dissecting the roles of museums and auction houses in the fine art world.
We dig deeper into the complex interplay of art, mental health, and societal perceptions of 'fractured' individuals. Tjo shares his experiences of the societal pressures and the stigma of mental health, while we also traverse the emerging world of cryptocurrency and. The story doesn't end here. Tjo takes us through his journey of self-discovery after he dropped - "Bleu", which was an art piece that sparked conversation in Web3 for over a month!
As we transition towards the future of art, we delve into the impact of AI and emerging technologies on the traditional definition of art. We make a case for the indispensable role of the artist's unique perspective, something that machines can't replicate. We also discuss the symbiotic relationship between daily art and social media, the potential opportunities with NFTs, and how he is leveraging art to raise awareness for Alzheimer's disease. Our journey with tjo has been nothing short of a revelation, and we can't wait for you to join us on this exploration of art, mind, and society. Tune in, and let's unravel the beauty and complexity of art together.
tjo links:
Website: https://www.tjo.art/
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/0xTjo
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
GM, this is Boone and you're listening to the Schiller Curated Podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with Tijo, a visual artist whose art creates a dialogue, raises awareness and sparks conversation around mental health, self-expression and the human experience. In this episode, we explore the concept of For the, fractured to the purpose and impact of his blue rooms, the role of museums and auction houses and the fine art world, and much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guest may own NFTs discussed. Now it's time to grab some coffee and dive into this conversation with Tijo. Oh, we're both recording Tijo. Good morning, sir GM. How are you, tijo? How are you? I'm good. How are you? Not too bad? I'm here in Texas and we're actually having arguably nice weather for November. I think it's like 78 or 80 degrees Fahrenheit, which means it's like 18 to 20 degrees Celsius, I think, if I'm doing the conversion right, it's actually been really nice out here. Yeah, I'm not sure where you're located, but how's it over there?
Speaker 2:We're officially entering winter territories. There's snow everywhere now and it's not disappearing overnight. I'm actually really happy. I think winter is a beautiful season. I love to. It's also a quick hack to waking up. If you just have a hard time waking up, you can just go outside and the cold is going to do its work. But yeah, no, I'm quite happy with the weather these days. At least it's not just like weird watery ice.
Speaker 1:I can really relate to the cold or enjoying the cold. I think as a Texan I'm kind of like a. I stick out like a sore thumb here because I'm one of the few who enjoys it when it gets really cold outside. But it's nice to have that fully transition where sometimes the weather doesn't know what it's supposed to do and it's nose and then it melts and then it's gross and it has all these different weird changes. I'm happy that there's a little consistency. It's funny we're talking about the cold right after that. I know you're no stranger to having cold showers and heavy things wake you up like that.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, it's just great the stimuli for all the nerves in the body. Honestly, I don't want to go on the preaching wave about the cold. I think the best person to talk about it is probably Loha, because most of the things I know about cold showers and stuff comes from him. But yeah, I do think that there is great benefits that come from the cold, but it's still really fun when it's sunny outside in summer. But I'm never really sad when I feel the same.
Speaker 1:It's nice to meet someone who kind of has the. I guess the excitement just runs through. It doesn't really matter. The weather can have an effect, but it's very nice to have someone who doesn't look at it in a melancholy way. I think it's quite beautiful. For sure I'm always one of those people that you can put more clothes on and be more comfy. Versus the summer, it's like you can only take so much off, especially in public. I always look at that like, even if it is really really cold, it's like, well, okay, then I get to wear more sweatpants, I get to wear more hoodies, I get to wear comfort socks. There's really, to me, no downside to it. Happy to hear that. And yeah, for sure, shout out. I believe it was David. I've seen his stuff before but I haven't doven into it. But yeah, man, well, just want to say, dude, thanks for coming on. It's a pleasure to have you.
Speaker 1:I've been a long time admirer of your work. I'm not really sure where I found it. I'm pretty sure Samantha Kavett, she shared some of your work at some point and I was like wow. And then I think you picked up a piece from Eva Eller back in the day. There's a why I say back in the day, like a year ago or something like that, and I've just been a really big fan and admirer of your work, your journey, how you tell stories, if you're as a person, it's been a. It's really great to finally be able to talk to you now in a little bit more formal environment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I mean we've like talked a little bit on Discord, talked in the Twitter and Twitter a bit, but yeah, it's good to finally get to have a proper conversation to say so. I feel like up till now we've just had like polite numb talk, just saying whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm not sure if you remember, but we briefly met in New York, but I think it was like towards the end of your trip and you were just like like I think we were both just so exhausted that it was like, oh great, this is Ambuna. You're like, yeah, I'm DJ. I'm like, oh cool.
Speaker 2:It was like oh, I think I remember it was. I did. I have no more beer. Yeah, was it? I think it was. Uh, I just shaved my beard, yeah, that night I was so drained it was uh, yeah, no, it's, it's. I was absolutely drained. I had no idea we were actually going to a gallery. Teri had just told me like, oh, there's this part I want to go. So I was like following him, brain dead.
Speaker 1:And then I arrive and it's like there's people and I kind of have to be like just mentally present and I was definitely underprepared as someone who likes to talk like a lot and have I'm not really as good, as you know like I can, of course, do small talk, but I of course prefer, like you know, if we have like a 20 to 30 minute, you know, at least a minimum conversation. That's just. I've always been like that and so, uh, kind of, you know, when I, when I go to New York, it's very much like that where you're just trying to meet or I'm just at least me, I'm trying to meet as many people that I want to meet, um, as possible and just training my brain to like not be able to like just go completely in depth on a conversation and do that multiple times throughout the week. I mean it was uh, it's really taxing man. So I mean, like, whether it's for the same reason or a different reason, like I think at that point it was probably the middle, towards the end of the I guess you could say the conference or you know what the events that were taking place.
Speaker 1:You know something I typically ask on one of our spaces that I think is one of my favorite questions, because it's uh, you know, it's kind of nebulous, but also, you know, people can answer it in a vast you know in a great many of ways, but would love to kind of know, like, like, who is TGO? You know, like, who is TGO, or what does TGO represent? Um, I would love to maybe start there.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a great question. Who is TGO? Um well, uh, I well, the first thing that I can definitely say is that um TGO is an artist's name. Uh, it's not the name on my passport.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, uh, for I mean I created uh, TGO, um, because I knew exactly what I was going to be saying.
Speaker 2:I had a clear pad in mind as far as, like, the purpose of my art and what I wanted to say with it.
Speaker 2:And so I created TGO knowing that I would be, uh, doing stuff for the fractured. I mean that was like the original, like tagline I would like for the fractured. I felt like, uh, I could tap in things that I've lived through and I was able to put it into visuals in a way where it could help some. It could help people that didn't necessarily add the resources or the people around them to push them towards help, to see that they could get out, and stuff like that. So that's I created TGO, thinking I would just be sharing these things online and that I would just be able to help some people, like whoever basically, and and as they the the most enriching and enriching stuff that I've gone through in in uh with, uh with the web, uh with TGO, has been to, uh is the, the connections and, uh, the deep discussions I've had with like very, very multiple people that I had no idea who they were. They just reached out to talk about it and uh that always feels very special.
Speaker 1:I can imagine, man, I mean, and and thanks for sharing that and I it's really there's a, there's a few, there's a few places to to go off of there.
Speaker 1:You know, I guess the the the natural thing for me is, like I've always noticed that you've had, uh, you know the, for the fractured is really where, where I related to a lot Like what, especially when I first I'm a big fan of bios and when I, when I saw that in your bio initially, uh, that initially piqued my curiosity, you know, um, because you know I've recovered from uh heroin addiction and I've been sober for 10 years, and so I was like, well, like that. I don't know what he means by fractured, but like I felt that, you know, and so, um, it really like drew me to that, and so I'd love to kind of maybe like dive into that a little bit. You know, like, was there um, when it comes to like creating, when was like your first experience with creating art? You know like, where was it? Was it like really young, uh, was this always the goal, uh, or was did this kind of like happen a little bit later? I guess that's where really what I'm curious here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, uh, that's a great question. Uh, um, we can start with, uh, just leading up to the fractured Um, I had no idea for the longest that I would be wanting to make art. Um, I wasn't raised in the context of like art being evil, even remotely something other than, um, like at the limits, like, uh, an activity. Um, it was like there was no role models or like art was just like this thing that would never be a career in any sense, um, and that there was no proof of it even working around me. Um, and so I I I never imagined I wouldn't be an artist. I never even imagined I would be one.
Speaker 2:They called it my work art. Um, I always added a nick for just creating stuff, but it was. I was very, uh, I was self-aware in the sense where I never really wanted to call it anything other than just creating stuff, and I would just always just jump from when. Wherever I went into making stuff, it was always just a matter of like, just putting stuff into it, and then you know, just leave it be and it's not serious, and I just got it fun.
Speaker 2:So I, I wouldn't, I didn't call it myself an artist, uh, up until I guess like 20, 29, 20, 20, 19, 2020. Um, just because I was starting to feel more comfortable with the terms and because I moved out to uh, montreal and I was more and more like uh, I had more and more knowledge about the art world and the art history and it was becoming apparent to me that it could be something that was net positive for society. But, um, it took me a long time to be able to even figure that out. Um, and it took me also a long time to even figure out that I had problems. So, um, uh, so, yeah, I just uh, I never, I like I wasn't, I didn't want to be a non-sets, 6 years old, like and at 15 years old I was like I was doing drugs and shopping thing.
Speaker 2:I never really uh, I I wasn't really uh thinking like, oh, I want to be this uh, until very much later and after actually my diagnosis and being medicated, um, and I always liked the terminology of fractured um, because, uh, well, for me, um, it holds two parts, like I do nothing, that whatever we call mental illnesses and stuff, mental health is a disability. I've never, I don't believe that. I never believed it. Well, I mean, I actually know I did at one time when I was very younger, believe it because that's what, um, my father would tell me.
Speaker 2:But, um, as somebody that's now like, that's lived through it, that's overcome it, I understand that it is a strength, um, but it leaves behind some sort of like, um, um, anormalities that don't fit in like with what you're supposed to be in, uh, in capitalism, uh, in capitalist realism, like it's just something where it feels like you're a bit of a broken toy in the box of toy, the of where you live. You know, like everyone's doing their little thing and you're, you're just like the kind of, you know, like you're missing a few parts, um, in this whole theater. That is uh, uh, capitalistic realism, um, and so, yeah, I, I felt like I could be a voice for that and that, um, the people that I needed to touch with would would relate to that tagline. But that in itself it was also pretty just enigmatic and it wasn't forcing anything.
Speaker 2:I, I, I hate like the really really, really, really crowded like same bios. So I wanted to find a way to say like, just like, if you're like, if you read this and it sounds some, it rings a bell, then this is for you. If it doesn't, maybe it is for you and it's okay, maybe you just it makes no sense for you and you know, don't care. But yeah, that's how I came with the.
Speaker 1:I really liked that and I, I very, very, very much relate to simple bios. Uh, crowded bios, like stress me out. Uh, it's like what am I reading? Like who are you? Uh, and you know, and I and I speak from someone who's had uh a crowded bio before you know, uh, and I think the more I've evolved as a human, the shorter the that's got. Have you found that with yourself as well?
Speaker 2:Um, no, honestly, um, I I always hated it, but that's because I also. I also really hate, uh, pretentious people and because of that, I always saw the big bios as trying to prove a point to the people on the first impression basis, which I didn't really like. Like you know, like I like naming all the awards and stuff, like I feel like the people that truly need to know this, if they need to know it, they'll find a way to know that stuff, but like just putting it as like the first impression, like you would never open a discussion with someone by saying like two times the nominee for this, you know, like that's the words first impression ever. If you like, have a coffee with somebody. So I don't know why I would be trying to be pushing that as my first impression.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense and I, I, yeah, I'm really glad you touched on that Cause I think it. You know, whether I was fully conscious or fully aware of that or not, I think there was a level of that in me as well, or there's a bit of that. So I appreciate that and I, you know something that you are, something you're really touching on, obviously someone who's had, um, had their struggles as well. Uh, when it comes to like that broken toy, you know, that was something that really stuck out to me in this cap, you know, which collect capitalist realism, um, and but one thing that, like I've really noticed and this is kind of a take on mental health in general um, you know, I feel like it's a lot more accepted today to like have a therapist, like it doesn't feel so weird to have a therapist say that it did like, say like five or 10 years ago, you know where it was like kind of like that thing, where it was like, oh, you have a therapist like fuck is wrong with you.
Speaker 2:You know, like and I'll go even further to say that it's still needs a lot of long way to go. Like, yes, like on our microcosm space and in like metropolis and places like that with higher education. Like it is like getting extremely prioritized as a self-care routine almost, but like when you move away from the centers and you're going to small cities, it's still seen as like you're like a crazy person, like there's still so long to go, especially in reclusive areas where, like it's still seen as like crazy house appointments and like as a problem and as something that you know doesn't necessarily exist. So, yeah, I mean it's like it is getting like a lot more like recognition for what it truly is, but only in certain spheres. Like it's there's like around here, like I can tell you that it's still not really something that's talked about.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, it's okay, and yeah, I think you're absolutely right and I had an experience like that when I went. We went to Egypt in like 2019 and I got to really see how far but, like you know, as much problems as we have like it really showed. It showed kind of how spoiled certain circles you know were especially in, especially over here, and I live, you know, I live in a pretty progressive city is Austin, and so it's, you know, stepping outside of that really opened my eyes to kind of see how you know, like, like, even even others, just like racism and sexism, like those were like rampant and like public and they was still like just a regular practice. You know what I mean and it was just like wow, like this is the rest of the world still, like you know, and some of the and some of the other places in the world has a long way to go.
Speaker 1:But I would, I would agree with you, though it's like I feel like it's becoming more accepted, but it it'll take time. But I don't know. I feel like, if you look back at like the evolution of humans, you know we've increasingly, you know, as a whole society, it takes society a long time to change. You know, individuals change quicker, obviously, than the greater whole. But you know there is some momentum I guess is the better word like in that direction, at least from what I've seen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I agree. I guess, like the the biggest hurdle that's going to be coming in the coming, in my opinion, in the coming years, is that everything is so polarizing that it's hard to have something to take root everywhere, like respect of a certain thing or whatnot, because, like people are, like because of the internet, people are so pointed towards like a bad guy and a good guy. Actually, it's not only the internet, I mean all of cultures centered around a bad guy and a bad guy. But yeah, that's sort of like duality in the idea of like there's need, there needs to be something that's right and something that's wrong. It's getting even stronger. I feel like it's just getting stronger and stronger with the internet and I it's like I really hope that we can still have like lots of progress, because on one side, it feels like we're miles ahead from the other side and on the other side, like if they don't see it as miles ahead, they see it as miles backward.
Speaker 2:You, know, and so, yeah, there's all of that dimension of things that that's been on my mind lately. I don't even know if it makes sense in our current discussion. Well, I mean, that's the whole point of these discussions.
Speaker 1:I think it's, you know, I really like going down rabbit holes and I know you have, like, you think you're a very deep thinker and you think about things a lot, and so I think it's very, I think it's a great topic because you talk about and you represent and you create art. You know that has a lot to do, you know, with, you know with mental health and the topics surrounding it and some of the dialogues, emotions, you know. So something that, like I guess I would ask you as a you know, kind of like on the same beat here, is as an individual, you know, like, how do you do? You see, I guess, what's your individual? Have you thought about solutions to it? I guess is the better question, you know, on a personal level, when it comes like, what can each person do? And is that the same? Is there a one size fits all? You know, or do things have to get worse before they get better? You know.
Speaker 2:I mean it's definitely not a one size fits all. I mean I just feel like it's, it's just something we need to talk about and like normalize in the sense of like having discussion about it, Like as long as we break that cycle of like just silencing it. I think it's like everything, it can only go like if there's enough people involved, of different horizons. It can only go forward because it is just fundamentally a reality of the human condition, and so I just think it's a matter of time and and I shared effort, Yeah- I would, I would definitely agree, and I'm a I'm a huge fan of providing context.
Speaker 1:I think we, we very much share that, share that belief that you talked about before, and I think that we've, as humans, have lost our ability to to as a whole, you know, as a great greater society, like reason and have nuance and like have everything.
Speaker 1:You know what, if something can be both, it's not an either or, you know. So I'm very much a fan of that and I very much am aligned with that. So, but yeah, no, this has been a great like I I'm really glad we kind of started here, you know, and so something that I think I want to transition to and something that you've talked about in a lot of your you know, in some of your work, like especially in the discord and some of your work on the timeline, is, you know, the, you know most of your work has to deal with archetypes, you know, and I think I think, except for the one, actually, that I own, which is the nifty gateway one is the only one. That's not. So I would love to know, do you? Is this how you see the world is through archetypes?
Speaker 2:Um, it's how I I approach in the worlds, um, because most of my art is not about the outside world. I'm still very introspective in everything I do because, um most things going on in the world, I feel like I haven't figured enough of myself to then start having solid opinions, even if I think I do have some sort of logic in my brain. I'm still just very focused on figuring out that tremor inside, just so that I can like then have an outside. Look, that's proper. But yeah, I approach everything as archetypes, um, because I feel like it's it kind of breaks this idea of one sided um, of like, though, of like one sided conflicts and one sided opinions and one sided things.
Speaker 2:I like to approach, um, the human condition as something that has like many cogs in the machine and that all these cogs, even if, like they might seem like suspicious, they all serve a like purpose, in that I do think humans fundamentally want to do right, or at least the majority of humans fundamentally want to do what's right and what's good.
Speaker 2:And I feel like archetypes. They're very interesting because they allow me to think about these components and approach um this like problem solving, of being a good person while still having like uh conflict, because it's all within the same person and it's like you could have like your familiarity being in a be in a fight with your masculinity, but they're both trying just to be, to help you be the best, better version of yourself. And so I really like to uh, to approach my art like that, but I never really forced it upon people because most people think I'm I'm like depicting people or like uh, just a specific person, um, but in general I'm just like always reflecting back to like archetypes and the symbolism and like making it like a very simple thing that we can build.
Speaker 1:I really liked that and I think, yeah, I'm, I'm so, I'm so happy. I asked that because that explanation makes a lot of sense and I think it's, yeah, it kind of it's on the same through line of of, you know, having this binary approach to the world, or kind of shaking that, shaking that belief up, or shaking up that, uh, that way of thinking. You know, um, cause I think there's there's a lot of, there's a lot of duality, or like humans are not simple creatures, like we are simple in a sense, but we're also not. Uh, there's a lot going on and I really, uh, just I liked, I liked to highlight the approach of it's.
Speaker 1:It's in a world where a lot of people try to um, commentate on the outside world, uh, I feel are very underqualified to do so, uh, and I think it's a bit, uh, I think it's a bit pretentious in that sense, uh, to really think that we actually know what the hell's going to happen or we know what's actually going on. Um, and I I enjoy I think that's really what I enjoy about what you do is it's, it's all focused inside. Um, cause I've I don't know about you personally, but I feel like I have a better understanding of the world. Uh, when I focus on myself more, you know, or like. When I focus on when what's wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, um, yeah Well.
Speaker 2:I guess when you can understand like all this energy within you and when you fill in harmony with it, then a lot of things make more sense.
Speaker 2:You know, when everything isn't like, is moving too fast, everything is full of uh hatred, or when you yourself fall under like negative negativity and stuff like that, like it's hard for you to have like a comp, I become closure to actually look at things for just just basically look at things. It's not even like how you look at things, just looking at them. Like uh, sometimes you can just think you're looking at things but you're just like already internalizing an infant thing and projecting onto the world, um, and so, yeah, I mean then, like all of that work, like uh, I really do with myself, so like, um, so basically, I don't really like I don't have a statement about like saying, like having an opinion. I think it's good to have an opinion to a certain sense, Like, um, I don't think having no opinion is good either. But yeah, I do like to focus on, uh, what I feel like I can talk about first and, um, maybe in the future, uh, I feel more comfortable about talking about like sociopolitical stuff, um, that are not centered around mental illness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and that makes sense, um, and appreciate that clarification, and I think something that, um, something that you touched on there is something that I find really fascinating is like the, the speed, um, and the pace at which you know I guess you could say, the world's operating in right now, um, you know, and especially in the crypto space, if we want to, like make it super topical, uh, about, you know, the space that we both kind of play in and how we, how we met, um, you know.
Speaker 1:So I would like to kind of maybe touch on that, you know, cause I know, at least for me, and I'll just share some context to maybe, uh, yeah, to maybe provide a different way of running or to provide a runway. But I know, when I came in here, um, in the early 2021, it was super like, it was just like, you know, like once it once it clicked for me, it clicked, you know, and I have a lot of reasons for, like, why I want to be here, um, but I'm very curious, like as an artist coming into the space, you know, I know there was probably a, a period where you were like really hustling, uh, you know, to kind of figure your way out here, um. So I'd love to kind of know what were some of like the um, like, what were some of the early struggles when you first came in here. I guess, as there is a question I'm looking for uh, kind of like pre blue, like pre blue, like yeah, yeah, like in the space.
Speaker 2:Hmm, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I feel like the space is pretty, uh, aside from being really fast, I feel like the biggest struggles were with um, me just being in a not really having exactly at the very, very beginning, like still like even earlier than that I still was just experimenting and not really having a proper procedure with my art.
Speaker 2:Now I am very, very, very like deliberate with everything and you can kind of see it with like um, even if it was always centered around like kind of energy, archetypes or figures, it still was like more random, and now you can see that there's like a very cohesive line. So that would like. I mean I feel like the biggest challenge for me was just evolving as an artist still within all of that movement and that fast pace environment of the of like the bull run or whatever. But yeah, I mean uh, yeah, I mean the space is still like a very like it can be a headache, but I try to not really give it too much attention, especially now Totally Um and it feels like yeah, and I'd like to like click on, like how do you like what's kind of like the way you counter that?
Speaker 1:you know, cause I I noticed that it's it's really challenging sometimes to to counter some of the excitement or to challenge you know to to like figure out like okay, when do I need a break, when do I not? Like, how have you, how have you kind of navigated that Cause? I feel like you've done really well at like taking breaks and like figuring stuff out for it for yourself.
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, well, I mean, um, honestly, like I do feel like I was able to make a proper body of work and I'm proud of what I've made, but I also feel like, um, a lot of the stuff that happened was also like good timing, uh, and luck in the sense of, like I'm not like a mastermind marketer.
Speaker 2:Most of my drops didn't have mastermind marketing or marketing team or whatever. I was just literally dropping stuff because it was ready. Um, I feel like already that can give a perspective where I wasn't trying to kind of I wasn't really playing some sort of like optimizing game. Uh, it just kind of happened the way it did and everything kind of fell in place and like it already kind of sets the way the well, sets the path into like not being able to disconnect from all the noise because, like from the beginning and never truly dictated whatever I was doing, and so, um, just growing as an individual, getting more and more confident into my procedure. My message and all of that is just that the, the sort of noise from the space, gets like ever more so dim compared to other concerns such as making certain projects, uh, completing certain projects, making the best project possible, looking out to push even further the expression. Like these are way more challenging than whatever likes going on with.
Speaker 1:like the big founders or whatever, like uh, yeah, totally I mean, and that and that makes sense and I appreciate you like sharing that and it's cool to hear, kind of how you've how you've evolved.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned like, uh, you mentioned like there's a lot more cohesion, uh, a lot more through lines, uh, in the work today than kind of when you were figuring it out. So I like you know, as a as just selfishly, what I remember when, when this happened, I would love to just kind of double click on, uh, you know the blue rooms a little bit here. Um, you know cause I remember, I remember when it came out, of course, I just remember what happened on the timeline, uh, and I was just thinking like wow, like this just kind of happened and it kept the space. It kept the attention of a space that can't keep, that has the attention span of like a cockroach, you know, and it kept the attention of the space for like a month or pretty, like, at least at least strongly like two, three weeks Uh wonderful, yeah, and and like a lot of people thought it was very primitive, they premeditated, I don't know.
Speaker 2:A lot of people really assume it was like a very big planning of that. But, um, it all happened quite like it just kind of happened, and I I'm probably, I probably have a very incredible angel on my shoulder that guides my path, because it's kind of crazy that it just kind of happened Like, um, and I'm sure that maybe, like on a subconscious level, I'm doing things that made it possible for it to happen. Uh, but still, you know, I was just like oh, I'm going to make an auto portrait. It's only going to be blue, because that's how I see myself and I'm just going to mint it. And then I'm going to make a funny tweet saying that the color blue is CC zero now, and that I'm and and all of that.
Speaker 1:And then it went crazy. What was the emotional impact from that? Seeing all that?
Speaker 2:I started seeing my therapist again. It was just too much Like honestly, it was just too much stimuli. It kind of froze me. I was kind of just overwhelmed. Uh, so I had to see a therapist again, but then I then I was able to kind of like I guess that would be a good pinpoint on when I started to truly separate myself from the space. Maybe it feels very more intuitive because I did that work when blur happened, because I just couldn't psychologically keep up with what was happening with blur. It was just way too much for me to take in, and so I was forced to make separation at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, man, and I'm glad you kind of framed it like that, because there's definitely a like that's kind of what we were dancing around is. There's a separation, and I think that happens like where one kind of separates from external external, I guess, events or external happenings or you know, and kind of like hones in or dials it in a little bit. I guess, once the dust settled, you know like how did that? Like you know, you went through your therapist and like that's, that's why it was a wild experience. Like just I was just thinking that when you release, I'm like this guy is an incredibly emotionally sensitive being and I know I am as well, and I'm just I was trying to put myself into my shoes and like how would I react to that as well. But there was this definitely a shift in momentum and, if you don't mind sharing, like what was some of the biggest like I guess, awakenings or I guess the biggest learnings from that, that really kind of helped shape that next chapter of your artistic vision.
Speaker 2:Honestly, I think the like, the most like most of I don't think most of these happen during blur or after blur. Those would be like just like a continuous path in my opinion. But it's certainly. Surely blur had forced me to be able to say, like it's just online stuff In the sense where, like, yeah, I can just get a hundred notifications every 10 minutes. But like it's just online stuff. Like I'm outside, I'm with my cats, I'm with my friends, it's like I don't need to force myself to be in front of that I'm, I like there's a whole world all around me aside from the screen. So I guess it really helped me to see that.
Speaker 2:But everything that was going on within my art was already like like, for example, like the blue rooms were premeditated like a long time before my first blue room mint, I had even planned I went all the way to Los Angeles to shoot with a few models I really liked. I took the pictures, came back, started working from them and yeah, I mean especially like from the beginning, you can see that there's like no cohesion in my subjects, like I was just shooting with whoever that was nice and that wanted to work with me, especially at the beginning who was down to work for maybe a lower wage gen agency and, yeah, I mean, that was like wait before I started doing the blue rooms. And then I came to the conclusion that everything I had no reason to fly to LA. It made absolutely no sense that I spent all that money just to go take pictures there, like that. The dream of working there made no sense for me. I didn't have need to be doing that.
Speaker 2:And earlier I had work with Calvin, which, like earlier like in 2021, I had worked with him. He was really cozy, really nice guy. We became friends and I was like I could just shoot with Calvin here, like, and not have to fly all the way to Los Angeles from Montreal. And then I started working with Calvin just because it was convenient. Honestly, it was just a convenient. I loved working with him. So I just started taking pictures with him. And then it was around the time where I was still putting the symbolism in place in my mind for the blue rooms. So I was making the blue rooms, I was touching on subjects that were extremely first layered, but I wasn't really touching on the way I was building them. And then that's when it started making sense that I was using those figures to depict like archetypes within myself that were facing the sort of void or the abyss like the blue abyss.
Speaker 2:And so once I figured that out, I just started to think like I need to start trying to pinpoint certain archetypes to certain figures. So I'd been working with Calvin, it was going great. So then I started thinking like, okay, calvin can represent Apollo, and even then the thought about him representing Apollo came even way in the future, but representing the man archetype. First shoot was with also a girl, which her name was Gabrielle, and she was representing the women archetype.
Speaker 2:One of the pieces that got the most out of line narrative put onto was I Hate you, which was the feminine archetype giving a big slap in the face of the masculine archetype which for me was just something about finding this sort of like masculinity, because growing up with like a single father and a brother, I was surrounded by men and I didn't necessarily get a space to develop that femininity and then everyone thought it was something about love or it was something about a dispute of lovers, but it was always archetypes and from there it just kept going and every piece I would try to figure a little piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 2:I ended up also feeling like Calvin was also not only representing men in the work, but he was also extremely measured and his poses were extremely theatrical. I felt like he was, he had something more of like, he was like a polo, some extremely refined in these capes. And I could feel that after I read the Bird of Tragedy by Nietzsche I think that's the English word that I had a lot of, I was superposing a lot of Dionysian approaches or destructive and extremely impulsive processes, and that it was like there was a really interesting relationship in my work between the idea of like dream archetypes and like what they come up under real circumstances within the psychic, and so it just like kept evolving and evolving and then it was like, ok, well, I feel like I need to explore new things and I don't want to just be making blue rooms forever. And so it just kept on going, and here we are.
Speaker 1:And I'm man, thank you for like really going into that, thank you for really going into the blue rooms and like kind of giving a really detailed breakdown of like how this all happened and it it's sound. It's really funny to watch. I bet that has to be entertaining to see how people interpret your work versus like the actual intention Of that like, especially with the, you know, the one where she was slapping the man. It was like that must have been like a lover's quarrel, you know, or that must have been a relationship gone bad, but it was just, it was two archetypes and that that's really what I found.
Speaker 1:I remember I think you shared a like a very small bit of that and I was like that's that helped me see your work in a whole new light. And something, when you were like at the very beginning and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you were talking about first layer concepts, I think was the word that's like when you started like developing those, like what does that? What does that mean? You know, and like what are the other layers mean as well? And have you gotten there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Like first thing. I mean I was doing a piece and all I had in mind was feelings and or subject. So I was like OK, I'm making a piece about this feeling I cannot necessarily write about, but I can put an image on it. So I'm just going to do that. I wasn't thinking like Like I wasn't internalizing, like how I would get there. The same way, I wasn't internalizing, like all the components of image making. I was just like I have this and I want to express this and I'm going to do with that. It was some sort of like just putting stuff together which worked at the time.
Speaker 2:But now I want to be more deliberate with everything, like Making sure that I approach it, the, in a way that makes sense with the symbolism, and I'm not just putting red people in the weird aesthetic and it's OK, like it's not. Like I cannot just put red archetypes and like a blue background Just to put like there needs to be something behind it. That goes even further than just like I'm I'm feeling lonely or whatever, like there needs to be a higher purpose, or at least I'm. I'm moving towards this Kind of inverse idea of like it feels like the dissect, desecralization, anyway, like the like, the like, the Stripping of meaning of art has been going on for like almost a century now. It feels like it's like the water is kind of changing and I'm happy to be kind of going in in the in the like.
Speaker 2:If, like, the world is like a balance and it's been going away for like a century, I like the idea of bringing back symbolism and doing things that serve some sort or that try to serve a certain purpose beyond just being Art for the. I don't know if it's, I wouldn't say art for the sake of art, but just like. Well, you know, like I kind of lost myself there, but anyway, I'm trying to bring more purpose into my work and more mean Got it and that makes sense and I like the way I think what you just touched on.
Speaker 1:there is something that, like, it's taken me a little while to discover it, but like kind of understanding you're talking about like the world's undoing a lot of definitions of, like what makes art art, and I think I'm really getting to experience that personally because you know, you know, I was I'm kind of like an accidental art collector.
Speaker 1:You know, came in not for the art, but definitely stayed for the art and found a home with artists and it's been my favorite. You know it's been, it's been where I spent like the most of my time since I've been here and I've kind of noticed that, especially as I go back through art history and I go through museums and I go through and just just I mean honestly, tweets from people doing threats about certain artists, whether it's very on Mollner or you know, any sort of any sort of like artists in the past. You know, and it's becoming more and more apparent, especially with, like you know different, you know different tools. You know AI, generative arts having its having its moment with the combination of the blockchain. It's just, it's very, it's very different, you know, and it's a, it's kind of a new, it's, it's very, it's very exciting, but it's also kind of kind of nerve wracking at the same time. A little duality there.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I think like what's interesting is that you like, in the past century there was a really like something, really towards aesthetics that was coming going on in the sense where well, not well, I guess can be taken both ways, but like you're pushing like a particular vision and it's like you're, you're, you're the. The singularity of the vision is what kind of gives it meaning. But there's anyway, there's a feeling, or at least there's this overarching shadow, that the upcoming of AI and all of those things kind of make like, but first of all they make aesthetics completely worthless because right now they're like AI still cannot reproduce my work. But I think that's the way it is. Right now they're like AI still cannot reproduce my work because it's it's a bit chaotic, but like it will come in day where you can just press a button and make a T Joe. So like, just like for something, like the ideas are becoming a lot more like gentrified easily. Like inventing something is pretty much well, it's always been slightly, but it's pretty much of the table now or even just bringing something like new, it stays news for 24 hours.
Speaker 2:There's this. Not that I feel this notion of like. You need to kind of be serving a purpose and having some sort of story to tell, or there needs to be something more than just the work, because the work is becoming increasingly fungible, with, like internet and AI, like, no matter. Like what do you say? Oh, yeah, but that's like, not like the original. It's like, yeah, but it's still quite similar in like what, like the difference bakes into like the artist and what they're trying to say, because, like, in the end, that's something that you cannot replace with a machine. I mean, a machine can tell you like what you could be saying to act like you are putting purpose onto your work, but it's not like having it.
Speaker 1:It's totally I don't know what it was that you said there that just like really made that click. I think those thoughts have kind of been really disconnected in my head or those feelings have kind of been disconnected. I haven't really found a way to put them together and it makes. It makes complete sense.
Speaker 1:I've often had that viewpoint of you know, regardless of like how pretty it looks, like humans, you know, humans are really really intuitive creatures and we can really tell when something impacts us or not. And I think that, yeah, you're definitely right with with AI, that kind of strips away the visual aspect of it, and I think you kind of just touched on, you know, the next question that I had was like how, like, how you're, like, how you approach AI and how, like, how you're, I guess you know kind of grappling I don't want to say grappling is not like the right word, but like kind of how like you're conceptualizing it or how you, how you think it's going to be in the future, and I think that it just makes I don't know like I don't really know where I'm going there. I just say, like what you said just makes way too much sense when it comes to the ideas getting transmitted. Are you telling a story?
Speaker 2:Are you just making something pretty, you know, and I think that that's yeah, yeah, I mean, but that's like what I give meaning to and that's what's important to me. I mean, you can be making pretty pictures, you can be making even funny pictures and that's also really cool. Some of my favorite content online is like absolutely meaningless. It's cat videos favorite on the internet. No doubt I absolutely love cat videos. But then, yeah, when it comes to having tools like AI, first of all, it's an extremely amazing technology. The way they achieved it is extremely unethical, but it is amazing Scraping the entire internet and basically compromise, like just being ahead of laws and just like just infringing like millions of copyrights, if not billions like I cannot get behind that ever, I think, just because it's not okay.
Speaker 2:Like there's no science. There's no like the sort of like, oh, it's for science. That's never paid off anyone. They invented the bomb for science and then they dropped it on cities. There's no science. That's for the good sciences, for science. But now that it's there, there's nothing to do about it here at this day. It's an amazing technology and it's something that's going to disrupt a lot of things, but I also think right now it's overestimated in the sense where it's new and there's so little of it realistically. Even if there's like thousands of it, maybe hundreds of thousands, it's still something that everyone is forming ideas around and so there's not really any standards for it. And it's kind of like everything's kind of on this, like, oh, it's AI, it's new and things, but like as of now, I've seen very few. I think like I still find our virtual networks like guns, like the gun by Pindar, what Refik did with the moment. Like I still find these models a lot more interesting than the billion billion photo models by, like mid journey and stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is very interesting and I think it's having its moment, kind of similar to like NFTs having their moment in 2021, where it was just, oh, it's new, or kind of like the internet back in the early 2000s. It's very, very similar oh, it's new. We're just going to throw a lot of attention, a lot of time, a lot of buzzwords, a lot of everything at it, and then the dust will eventually settle slight. Yeah, it is a bit overestimated and I'm glad that you touched on, you know, kind of like, why, like, yeah, why the you know, I guess, the duality of like it's here, it's an amazing, but it's also you know how they got it. Yeah, definitely ahead of a lot of different, yeah, a lot of different laws, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And like, but like, I respect like AI artists and I understand why they're drawn to it. It's a really interesting. I have fun with it too. Sometimes I just mess around with it just for fun, because I'm like, oh wow, I am not Michelangelo, but I can just type his name and the computer is just going to do something. Painted like him, like crazy, like that's actually like fucking crazy, like on every plane of existence.
Speaker 2:Never imagine the computer could do this, let alone give you options, and be like, oh, but I can do another one, oh, yeah, and I can just change the like the guy in the middle it's okay, don't worry, I got you. This is amazing. It's just that I feel like if you have something that strips all the meaning to visuals or to like the aesthetics of things, then what is the function of something that does aesthetics? So basically, like without contextualization and without purpose, like I feel like a lot of AI art is counterintuitive in the sense that it disproves a lot of fundamentals about art, but it like creates these things that it disproves itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah, it does. And something I wanted to touch on here it's on the same beat is do you think that, with something that's now just so visual and so, yeah, just contradictory by nature, do you think that this is honestly what? Because I constantly now the prefaces were like, you know, there's a lot of art I see on the timeline and then there's a lot of content I see on the timeline, and do you think that, because we're talking about cat videos, you know, in the beginning, right, there's something that just don't have any meaning, right? Yeah, what's your? Yeah, exactly yeah, and it's okay.
Speaker 2:But do you think?
Speaker 1:like that's probably what's going to separate, or has this always been? What separated art from content is things that kind of maybe have had a little less meaning but are just like they make you laugh, you know, or they, you know. They kind of lack a deeper purpose. Do you think that that's kind of the separate? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean, yeah, I think it can be separated that way and like I think it doesn't only apply to AI Like my dailies most of my dailies, at the very least from the past months, because before, like back like two years, three years or a year ago, when I was doing dailies, there was like a higher purpose always because I was taking them very seriously. Like these days, when I do it daily, I'm just I'm just fucking around, like there's no, like my brain is like not thinking like I'm going to make this a piece of art. I'm just thinking like I'm just going to have fun today and I'm going to do something because like it's going to be fun, and then and I already have these other things that are really, really serious that I'm working on, and today I'm just making something for fun. And so, like you could say that those dailies I do like the one I posted just today and got no breaks like I mean it isn't like there is this aura because of everything I've made before it, but like is it art or content it?
Speaker 2:Like I think it's a very like narrow space where if we push it too far, if we push like the need for meeting too far, then there's very few art, if any. But then at the same time you know it's also part of just the reality of social media is like you just need to be out there and posting stuff. So, of course, like it's very friendly, friendly with like the medium to be making AI art, because you can literally be posting every day or even every hour or every 30 minutes, depending how much you curate, and so I don't know. It's just like all these thoughts banging each other in my head like add on, they're just like hitting each other and I cannot make sense of it for now. I'm not sure, I'm not certain. I feel like it's all very abstract and it's going to make sense in like five years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the way what you said in that little bit there of like the kind of like the fine line of what that is like, you know I can't remember exactly what you said, but it was like the sliding scale, you know, of content versus art and meaning versus not meaning, it's a very narrow one, because if you push it too far, then you know, then you're depriving the world of a lot of art, you know.
Speaker 1:So I think humans are still kind of figuring that out and I, yeah, dude, I mean I'm making more sense, I know more about it today because I found ways to apply it to my daily life and I've grown somewhat of a relationship to it, you know, towards like, okay, this is kind of how this works. You know, this is, this is how it can make my life better, you know, just in my narrow window, you know. But something I wanted to transition on and something that I know you've talked about a little bit in, especially when it comes to, like, museums and auction houses, like in the fine art world I know you've been, I know you recently put out like a tweet about wanting to have, you know, work in a museum is one of the biggest, you know is one of the goals. But I remember in the past you were approached by an auction house to put some work there that you had declined, and so I would love to kind of understand, you know the like, the way you view those, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course I mean, and not only once. I mean like, like, auction houses are no different than like any seller, like they're very happy to have any work they think they can sell and make money with it. I think there's this very weird link that people in this space made because of how and if these are hyper financialized the sort of thing that if you sell at an auction house, one day you're going to be in a museum.
Speaker 2:So I think that these are like, yeah, that they're linked, like strongly linked, which actually has no link whatsoever. Actually, there's even less chance. Even less chance except if you fall into the ends of a very, very, very, very like particular type of collectors which are very minimal in the markets. If you get in the end of some of these collectors and they do all of the procedures that are tedious to get a work appraised and interested by and in contact with museum and donated, if they go through all that process, maybe then you can become part of a collection through donation right.
Speaker 2:But auction houses definitely don't equate to museum acquisition in any way. They're like mutually exclusive. I don't want to say mutually exclusive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know what you're saying, but you don't want to say it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's just because the language barrier I'm not sure if it is the right. Yeah, I have no idea. Yeah, they're not like, it's not like.
Speaker 1:You can't say it as a blanket statement. They're mutually exclusive but there could be in some rare edge cases where they could be linked. But it's not a safe statement to say that it's directly linked as a whole as a guarantee.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean, basically, what I'm saying is that there's no link, there's no proper link, like, basically, and we have artists in this space that are in multiple museums and don't sell at auction houses and don't even sell that much work to say so actually, and I'm actually super happy for them. Realistically, from an art perspective, being part of a museum is the ultimate goal, because this is preservation, like, your art will be preserved and it will be recognized as art and treated as such, like being collected on the auction house. You only get that treatment if number goes up. If number goes down, it's a totally different story and people can change sentiment in seconds and decide like you know what Fuck that I'm liquidating all that stuff, like, and that's something that is just a reality of being in these hyper-financialized and speculative places.
Speaker 1:I was just about to say that seems like every collector in NFTs.
Speaker 2:I mean, but it's okay and like, honestly, like without this space I wouldn't be able to be making art full-time like that, and I'm very grateful for it. Do I want to take part in auction houses? I'm still very, very not certain about that because, like, I can already at the very least, be in direct contact with collectors here in this space, and that's already like a lot better, in my personal opinion, than just having it bought by someone I'm probably never going to speak to ever again, because, like it's more like that in a traditional art world, like you know, there's no real artist-collector connections happening.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, so I guess, go ahead.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, go ahead If you have another thought. No, I was just going to say but yeah, I dream of being in museums, like that's the life for me. That would be like and like I mean I say like in museums because I don't want to have like a single piece in a museum, like I just want to have work in museums, multiple establishments, as a living artist. That would be like the ultimate dream.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it typically doesn't happen till, you know, not when you're not living. So the question I had actually kind of lines up directly with that, you know, because I feel like Web3 and like I obviously I love this space for a lot of different reasons. It's got its challenges and like we're definitely stewards of it. But one of the things that's really interesting is that you know we're like there's like a lot of removal of barriers, you know there's a lot of removal of middlemen. So do you think that like, at least from in your journey, specifically you know, now that you have there's this duality of like having the collectors, having a collector base that has enabled you to create full-time art, but also the ultimate goal is to end up in a museum In the traditional art world, is it typically collectors that try to get artists in the museums or is it the artists?
Speaker 1:Is there a mix of both and do you see that kind of shifting in this space with artists that are like more I guess I guess digital, native or kind of grew up or have a big, you know. Have a big, you know. I have a lot of momentum here, I guess is what I'm trying to say Well.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean the collectors that do donate to museums. There's a lot more of them in the traditional art world and because right now in NFTs there's very few collectors and I can count on my fingers the amount of collectors that donate to museums, and it's two, that's it. But aside from that, yeah, I mean it's something that I'm still trying to learn and I'm having lots of discussions and honestly, like the truth is, I have no idea like the path to getting into a museum, because I would be doing everything in my power that way if I knew the actual path to it. All I know is that I have a bunch of ideas, I keep making art and that I want to go there, and I'm just conscious that there's certain people that can get to museums but selling at like an auction house or like there's things that just don't link. It's not like there's no link and we assume sometimes that because you see an artist that is in museums and then there's other works that sell in private auction houses and stuff like that, and you think to yourself there's a link, but that's like fabricated, so like it's actually just like it's a matter of connections. Realistically, you need to be in contact with like the right people at the right time and have the right work for the right institutions, and it's like a bunch of like weird variables that just are constantly moving and you're just trying to kind of just hit that target.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and for what are? The very least, that's how it feels for me. Maybe some someone like Raffiq feels like it's extremely straightforward, because he's like amazing and he's in the moment now and maybe it was all planned that way. But at least for me right now, with my actual knowledge, I'm just focused on playing the longest game possible, because right now I have no idea how to get to my goal. So I'm just like I need to think 10 years in the future, because I'm sure that in 10 years I'll definitely know how to be making this happen, or I'll be closer at the very least. But yeah, so that's why I'm playing the long game, because right now, like all these, it's totally very fuzz and there's something beautiful about that.
Speaker 1:I think that you know it's something that and I also think that, like you know, you've gotten this far by doing exactly what you've been doing, by like trusting your own instinct and like making art and following your gut.
Speaker 1:You know, and I'm sure it will become a little bit more clear, but I also like I also commit, because you, the way you think about things, I think you've also like impacted a lot of artists, especially in this space, with like just being very honest and very vocal about that.
Speaker 1:You know, like that's like what literally brought this whole topic up, you know, around museums and auction houses is because you've been very vocal about that, and I think that you've documented your journey along the way really well and it's really cool to watch. You know, and there's also been really cool, you know, kind of like actions that support the long term vision is like something that it may have. Some people may have done it before you, but like you were the first one that I saw do it is like minting work for your own vault, like minting work for your own collection. Is that kind of also the long term approach here, and I, because I just love, I just love that and I'm just like dude, like you're sharing another timeline you're meant to get for yourself and it's not, and it's going straight to the fall and I think that's just absolutely a Chad move.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, Well, I mean. So I mean I do that with a lot of work. I think the idea that artists shouldn't be meant to work for themselves makes no sense. I really want to own some of my work. I love that and it's okay. And like and like, especially works that I feel are like part of transition, or transitional like, so like, or works that I feel like I'm not ready to let go because I don't know if they're like I'm ready to like. It's just like I. For me it's just really plain and simple, but I don't think it translated very well into words. But yeah, I mean when, let's say, we talk about like yeah, yeah, like I don't own blur anymore.
Speaker 2:Would I like to own it again, I don't know. Because, like the whole part of it selling was a big part, I think, because I would got attention in the space. People were like, oh my God, big number. I think that as a serious impact in this case, we cannot deny it and also it's in the ends of big end, which is one of the nicest person I've ever met. I've met him in real life. He's a sweetheart. His partner is also is also a sweetheart. Like they're amazing and they're really happy to have it and I'm super grateful to have them as part of my collection collectors.
Speaker 2:But when it came to Rouge, I'm making all these little things in the background that are unfinished and I'm not ready to say that I wanted to be like that. It's like in the ends of someone else. Like we've made a custom, a custom templateable license that we will be able to release once everything is done. We even finished working on an engine where I'm going to, we're going to be able to send invitations and burn these invitations. An artist can burn these invitations through an engine contract linked to the license and then make them mint onto another contract, but only through that invitation token. Like there's a bunch of like real life licensing infrastructure built behind Rouge that I think was really interesting to look into as an artist, but also because Rouge for me stands for energy, and so I'm like energy. I feel like there's a connection between all energy shared not only within Arkansas but within the whole world, like the plant and the trees that plants everything. I feel like energy is something that's only present and all connected.
Speaker 2:I wanted to have that sort of, I wanted to build that sort of on chain connection and and like I have, I'm lucky enough to have a team that is comprised of very talented individuals that were able to make it happen, and I want to be, I want to own that like yes, and only now is it on chain. Like I want to at least own one of my colors, like I do them for myself to begin with. Like there's like no reason. Like from a perspective of like let's say, my like market markets or whatever. Like there's no reason for me to make like a color when I know very well there's artists that have been doing single color canvases since the 1950s. Like I am doing it because it means something to me and I want to do it for myself, first and foremost, and I want to own part of that because, like what, what are, like whatever happens, like these colors are always going to be extremely meaningful for me, and so I.
Speaker 2:It was very important for me to keep ownership of Rouge, even if, like on the short term, it probably would have been a good idea to make it a sort of auction like last time.
Speaker 1:But I prefer to. But I also think that makes blue a lot more special. You know, it kind of adds because, because you could have done it and it from a from a financial perspective, it probably would have made a lot of sense. But I think the the the part, the chapters in your journey, I think it kind of solidifies, you know blue, and it kind of like effectively closes that chapter. If you will, you know or you know I'm not sure if closing it's the right word, but it's like you know it, that was its moment and that was its own thing.
Speaker 1:I come from the reason I say this as well as I, you know, as much as I love I look at, you know, sequels and movies. You know, just to keep it on, a bring it up a few levels here is, you know you can tell when a story is being drug on, it's being unnecessarily expanded upon, when it could have ended. You know, on the last one or the last three. And it's a whole other topic of how movies are shot these days and what, what, what people. You know that, yeah, again, it's a whole other topic. But I feel like there I really appreciate when stories have a natural ending. You know, and they're there and they were special during that time and that was in there and people will still talk about that, you know what I mean. And it doesn't kind of bleed over into the next one, because the next one is definitely a very different, different energy, you know, than the first one.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, I just wanted to share that with you. I think it's really special that that you've done that, and I think you know I came from a legal technology background before I came into this space and so you know contracts when it comes like copyright and trademark, that has always been a very fascinating world to me and like how this, how we were going to plan on tackling that. I guess you know from from both artists and collectors and everyone who just enjoys this space in general. I've always felt like, you know, the laws that we currently have are very, you know, are very gray to a certain extent, and this, when I saw this, I was like, oh my God, this is actually. This is not only just an energy, but this is also pushing the needle forward as far as what copyright and trademark law and everything else could look like on chain, and I just think it's really cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I need to think because, like, a big part of how this was possible is thanks to Emilio. Emilio is the guy that did the license and all of the legal stuff. He's, like he's a very passionate, talented lawyer that really is happy that we did that project together Because it's multi-layered, like yes, there is this thing I'm doing for myself, but also like it's something that is like the first time of our knowledge but like of also like even digging, we just didn't find anything, so we're assuming it's the first time, but it's the first time that we're having truly enforceable on chain lighting and usage like recorded, like that's like just strictly, strictly on chain. It's really cool to be working on things like that. Of course, like Emilio would love for me to go to conferences and stuff to talk about it.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to convince him to go to my place because it's I don't want to go to the desert, like I mean, for me it's really cool, but like I'm not going to be talking with lawyers bro, I'm another degree for that but like they're a whole different beast. Yeah, 100% you know. But one thing that is certain is that I really really love working on Rooge for that, because I felt like I was doing something that also was touching other spheres of society, but in a way that didn't feel like overreaching and also like about like going outside, like Plakes and Tangles with my first project. That was absolutely like as an observation and I feel like it was great for me to release Rooge before that. And there's a good like. I really like the linearity of my work and the way it builds upon itself and on chain as a chronological thing. And yeah, I'm really, I'm really grateful now that that I was able to release the project and interactive pieces. Have you looked into the interactive pieces?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a little. I haven't probably looked into them as much as I should, but I have clicked on each of them for sure, and I have watched the video that you put on multiple times. So, yes, yeah, it's very, it's very exciting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, I obviously don't have. That was gonna be my. You know, like I'm like okay, what was?
Speaker 1:that was gonna be kind of where I started asking, because you know you talk like you've had your own, you know mental health struggles and your artist of voice for a lot of that, and that was like literally the through light. I was like, okay, we're gonna get to this at a certain point, but I'm like he clearly doesn't have all timers. Is there someone? Is there someone in this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, or what's the idea behind?
Speaker 1:this yeah.
Speaker 2:So what I want to get into with that mostly is that I do not have Alzheimer's but I do.
Speaker 2:I do know what psychosis is, I do know if I do know a bunch of stuff or live a bunch of stuff that allow me to be able to project empathy towards other stuff than just pure OCD or depression and these stuff.
Speaker 2:Like, I wanted to make a project about Alzheimer's. It took me like a year and a half from first thinking about the subject to actually like doing it and finalizing it, like one year, one year active and at least half a year before that, just like coming in terms with the subject, got it and I think I was able to create like a very particular like. First of all, the piece was absolutely inspired by the birth of tragedy I was trying to make. It was extremely inspired by Dionysian rituals and theater and I wanted to make to use dance to recreate the effect of degradation, of communion in inner dialogue. I feel like Alzheimer's is the disease that's the most easy to grasp, how like it evolves for us as humans, because it used this very, very, very concrete idea of memories. Everyone can relate to having memories and that's a very strong starting point to talking about other stuff.
Speaker 1:It really is, and I think so as someone who has their grandmother going through Alzheimer's. You know, like not, maybe not Alzheimer's, but it's dementia. It may be not it's not the same exact same thing but there's definitely like a. It definitely hit an emotional chord for sure, you know, because dementia also has to do with memory loss as well, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and also you know like often dementia is gonna be one of the symptoms of Alzheimer's, people with Alzheimer's and there's something about I think that that theory is that plagues and tangles is like it. It's a terrarium like like lipid Molecules, that kind of work doesn't work with neurons and it's it's like a no terrarium. I'll tell you that looks. And I really like that title because it really kind of it.
Speaker 2:It really touches on chemical imbalances and I I think that doing it in this video format about something like personally, I Don't know what it is like to have dementia, I do not know what it is like to have Alzheimer's, but I know what it is to lose base with reality and I know how On, like unreasonable it is and how, even if you know you're not touching base, it still feels very real and I feel like that project. That's was like the first time I was like I'm gonna like allow myself to imagine and project an Empathic view of how the victim of Alzheimer's might feel like During this the process of going through the evolution of the disease, especially the last stages, because it's really hard to get to understand them because the further they get into the memory, the artist communication gets, and I hadn't seen any sort of approach like that. Like most of the cinematic or visual approach to the disease are always about the close ones, because they're like Because they're like living through this with them.
Speaker 2:But I don't know, I thought it was really interesting to try put yourself in the in the shoes of somebody that's going through that sort of like chemical and philozof, philozof like Philzof, but like brain damage, literally like just like structural brain damage. And yeah, it was. It's a great, it's a big step for me because I think I'm starting to feel more comfortable going out of this sort of Purely introspective space.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's a great through line to like really, where we started this conversation I don't know if you picked up on that. You know we started with. We started with internal dialogue and then commentary on the rest of the world, and I love that. We kind of like I love that we kind of found ourselves here and I and I think that I just want to comment on on that because I think that it's hard, you know some, it's a lot, you know, obviously Art is a, for me at least when I go to museums, it's it's, it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's the way I feel like I can connect with the past of, like what people were going through at a certain period of time, especially in museums like I.
Speaker 1:I always share this, but like During when I went to the moment, looked at like the, the work in like the 1940s, and it was, like you know, it was very brutal because that was when, you know, world War two was happening and it was, you know, I always think about if you would have asked a bunch different people from a bunch of different countries what their take on it was, they probably would have given you different words, but the feeling that that would be admitted, or the vibe I guess you could say as a lighter word, would be the same, and that was really kind of what I felt.
Speaker 1:And so I think that interpreting something that is not really interpreted you know, it's usually interpreted from, you know, the another perspective is really I think it's just a really tasteful way to explore that. You know, when it comes, because there's no real dialogue, you know, but you're seeing the way these people move and you're seeing her face, and you're seeing her face like I remember that was the one part of that video where, like, I saw the shock interface when the people were gone and it was like, oh my god, you know, that was. That was really what really hit for me, you know, and so I kind of love that we just kind of have this as a Conversationalist. It's just kind of a beautiful way to start tying things off, I think, you know.
Speaker 2:But yeah, but like and yes, it's great that you touched on that I mean I feel like the. That also a popular belief is that Like the highest. Well, maybe in some cases, but I feel like there's a like. There's a sort of idea that the artist it gets psychologically, the more noise there is, and I never felt it that way and I don't see.
Speaker 2:I feel like the like the biggest psychological, psychological difficulties arise from isolation Within yourself. Like I don't think I was, I'm like I like from having a research co-habitants just interacted with people With Alzheimer's like in the late state there's an overwhelming amount of noise at all for them. It feels a lot more like there on the other side of a wall that you cannot go through. And I feel like even in psychosis like there is, like there is this sort of feeling that there is an overwhelming amount of things happening in your head but it's bad because you're isolated and that it doesn't make sense with your relations with the outside world. Or at least that's how I view it and I think I was. I was really happy to be able to, to like put in in perspective that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, and I think you did a beautiful job, man, and I'm excited to like see yeah, I know you mentioned there was parts of it that weren't you know that you were kind of getting some of the coloring done. So I definitely excited to like see you know the evolution of that, but I do. Unfortunately, this is one of those conversations where I feel like we could go not unfortunately for this, but unfortunately like I do have to hop in about 10 minutes, but this is like a conversation. I feel like we could probably chat for another hour or two, but I just want to just thank you again for coming on t-shirt. This was like, yeah, I really loved like all the directions we went here and it feels super cohesive and I just want to thank you for not only showing up but just, you know, like going, I guess going down the rabbit hole with me and sharing a lot of your personal, personal perspectives.
Speaker 2:Um, it was really. Thank you so much. It was a lot of fun. I don't know if I sounded stupid or not, but I really hope it made sense.
Speaker 1:No, you did not sound stupid and they're yeah, dude. I mean I, because I think that we get so caught up in like you know, conversations need to be a certain way or like we need to like talk about specific things at certain times, but it's like I Find that to be complete bullshit. You know, it's like whatever the wherever the energy kind of takes us is like we're really where we want to. You know Really where it's supposed to go and I think kind of just allowing it to run its course is a really yeah.
Speaker 1:It's just, in my opinion, the mark of a just a great conversation, because if we were having kind of like we were talking about earlier about Biotes, it's like you know you're not gonna start off with, you know, all these accolades for the starting of Like having coffee with someone's like you're not gonna have, you're not gonna have printed out list of questions.
Speaker 1:You know, when we have we have coffee, like this is what we're gonna talk about at this time and this can be super scripted. So, yeah, no it we. I really love that and I think we talked about some interesting topics and I think that you have a really like. You have just such a fascinating mind man, and I say that with, with, with, a lot of love, because it's really cool to not only watch, you know, your journey through your art, but also how you, just just how you move. And I'm really like honored to be able to help unpack a little bit of that, because we can only say so much on the timeline, you know, we can only say so much through the traditional channels, and that's really why, why I personally just selfishly enjoyed doing this.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for having me, man, and I agree, I mean, I really look forward to even listening to this myself.
Speaker 1:You're one of the few you are literally one of the few who actually wants to listen to their own episode. A lot of 100% have to.
Speaker 2:I mean it's because when we're having this discussion, it's it's all way to, it's extremely present, like there's no reflection, there's not too much reflection, at the very least while talking, at least for me. So I'm, I cannot wait to listen to myself and I'm either gonna be like, wow, I Definitely miss the mark there, or I'm gonna be like, oh, that that was really cool and I like I like both ways. Sometimes it's like, okay, yeah, you know, I I still need to work on On wording stuff, you know. But yeah, looking forward to listening to all of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man. Well, luckily we're both in it for the long game, so not too much pressure, but I guess we'll start. Well, you know. Lastly, before we we kind of Head on out of here is like, you know, if you want, if you have a lot of places where your work is shown, but like if you were wanting to send someone To like give a, to get, like, I guess, redpilled or not, you know, you know what I mean. Like where do you want people to go if they want to discover you or your work for the first time, or where you would do that?
Speaker 2:That's. That's a great question, I think. Hmm, I think I would tell people to go on my website On a TG add that you need to put the three W's because it's a dot art domain so it might not pop up but it's a TGA on that art. Basically Because there's like a good about section. I think there's a bunch of links to all the podcast, exhibition, feature articles and in the gallery you can see, like, chronologically, my work and in good quality. So I feel like it's the best place to to look at my work.
Speaker 1:Incredible. I'll be sure to put that first in the show notes. Man, yeah, Well, cool man Again, yeah. Just thank you so much, dude. Are you gonna be in Miami this year?
Speaker 2:Oh, actually, I'm skipping Miami because I'm being more deliberate with my spending, being more careful and I don't have any show plan in Miami, so I prefer to to just not go Because I have more stuff planned for New York. So I'm already working on that.
Speaker 1:more Incredible, incredible and well, I'll be there, I just want to give you a hug and just, yeah, I'm a big one that's to wait for April, but I really hope that you come by and that we can see each other.
Speaker 2:We will for sure, schiller.
Speaker 1:Schiller will always show we, we usually go to Miami as well as New York. We always get a house there. So it's yeah, for sure, we'll definitely give you a hug, man, but but just hang out for a little bit after I stop recording, just so it finishes uploading. But yeah, officially signing off, man, have a great rest of your day, my friend, you too, thank you. Thank you for listening To the Schiller curated podcast.
Speaker 1:We hope you enjoyed the conversation as we close that today's episode. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to Help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the curated podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly Twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, at Schiller XYZ. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remembering that you're always on the lookout for the best. Thank you for tuning in and remember if you're looking for it. Art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time. This is Boona signing off.