Join us on an enlightening journey as we sit down with Ruben Wu, the multi-talented artist who's weaving technology, space, and time into one-of-a-kind narratives you won't want to miss. From his journey in the band Ladytron to his innovative approach to art, Ruben offers a fresh perspective on the fusion of music and imagery. We'll discuss the power of visual language, how it allows artists to express their individuality, and why it’s more than just a stylistic choice.
Ever wondered about the role of AI in art? We tackle this topic head-on with a riveting conversation about the collaboration between our Reuben and AI artist Jenni Pasanen. We explore potential outcomes when human creativity meets AI abilities, hinting at a future where technology and creativity aren't just side-by-side—they're intertwined. Our dialogue extends further into the realm of digital art and its evolution, examining the innate human desire for physical representation and the ways technology can satisfy this longing.
We save one of the hottest topics for last - NFTs. Their impact on the art world has been profound, and we dive into how they create unprecedented opportunities for artists and collectors. We explore whether an artwork is considered crypto-native or not and how NFTs can enhance the provenance aspect in art. As we close our chat, we reflect on the dynamic landscape of the art world, the online creative community and the transformation of the NFT community into a more welcoming space. Tune in and get ready for a stimulating discussion at the intersection of art, technology, and innovation.
Reuben Wu Contact:
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/reubenwu
Website: https://reubenwu.com/home
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/Reuben_Wu
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reuben/
Notable Press & Auctions:
National Geographic August '22: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/article/stonehenge-behind-the-cover-august
An Irresistible Force (Sotheby's): https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/xperience-digital-art-auction/an-irresistible-force-bu-ke-kang-li
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
Join us on an enlightening journey as we sit down with Ruben Wu, the multi-talented artist who's weaving technology, space, and time into one-of-a-kind narratives you won't want to miss. From his journey in the band Ladytron to his innovative approach to art, Ruben offers a fresh perspective on the fusion of music and imagery. We'll discuss the power of visual language, how it allows artists to express their individuality, and why it’s more than just a stylistic choice.
Ever wondered about the role of AI in art? We tackle this topic head-on with a riveting conversation about the collaboration between our Reuben and AI artist Jenni Pasanen. We explore potential outcomes when human creativity meets AI abilities, hinting at a future where technology and creativity aren't just side-by-side—they're intertwined. Our dialogue extends further into the realm of digital art and its evolution, examining the innate human desire for physical representation and the ways technology can satisfy this longing.
We save one of the hottest topics for last - NFTs. Their impact on the art world has been profound, and we dive into how they create unprecedented opportunities for artists and collectors. We explore whether an artwork is considered crypto-native or not and how NFTs can enhance the provenance aspect in art. As we close our chat, we reflect on the dynamic landscape of the art world, the online creative community and the transformation of the NFT community into a more welcoming space. Tune in and get ready for a stimulating discussion at the intersection of art, technology, and innovation.
Reuben Wu Contact:
Linktree: https://linktr.ee/reubenwu
Website: https://reubenwu.com/home
X (Twitter): https://twitter.com/Reuben_Wu
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/reuben/
Notable Press & Auctions:
National Geographic August '22: https://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/article/stonehenge-behind-the-cover-august
An Irresistible Force (Sotheby's): https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auction/2022/xperience-digital-art-auction/an-irresistible-force-bu-ke-kang-li
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
Music by 800DB
Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic
GM, this is Boone and you're listening to the Schiller Curated Podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with Ruben Wu, a multidisciplinary artist who uses technology and the concept of time and space to help tell compelling stories about the world we inhabit. In this episode, we discussed the difference between visual language and artistic style, the unique collaboration of human and machine, linking digital and physical art, and much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guest may own NFTs discussed. Now it's time to grab some coffee and dive into this conversation with Ruben. All right, we are recording GM. Ruben. How are you, man, doing? Well, thanks, how are you, you know, doing good. We chatted a little bit offline. I think we're having some similar weather patterns, so it's been a comfy morning. It's been a little windy. Took the dog out to do her thing and, yeah, came in and had a cup of coffee and got ready for this. How about you?
Speaker 2:Pretty good. It's cold and wet outside, so I have not ventured outside yet. I've just been inside and just kind of responding to my emails and getting ready for this. So, yeah, happy to be here.
Speaker 1:Amazing man. Yeah, me too, and I'm happy that this was able to happen. I know sometimes during the holidays people it can tend to be a bit busy or people travel and do a lot of different things, but usually for the holidays it kind of slows down. So happy to be able to do this, man, and thanks for making the time. It's been a long time admirer, first time enjoyer, so I guess just say long time admirer, first time caller, but you know that's really the way that works. But yeah, glad to have you on here and yeah, just have always been an admirer of your story and what you do and kind of how you operate. I think it's incredibly unique, so we love to kind of just like hop right into it. I like to start with, like a pretty you know, the only question, you know. One of the questions I like to ask is super broad and nebulous, but just who is Ruben Wu?
Speaker 2:Okay, well, it always depends on who asks and depends on who I'm talking to. I mean, I guess there's a short answer and a long answer. The short answer is I'm a photographer and then the long answer is you know, I see myself as an artist working in the medium of photography, amongst other things. Usually I just say photographer or artist. Before I was a photographer, I was a full time musician and so you know that has overlapped quite a lot. So I make music as well as photography, as well as moving image. So it's always been quite difficult for me to pin down and to be specific about what I do, especially when I'm explaining what I do to people, to other people. So usually, in general terms, I'd say I'm an artist.
Speaker 1:I like it. I mean, that's something I've noticed throughout a lot of your work, and something that I recently didn't notice until this year, or that I didn't realize, is that all of the audio in your art is all produced by you and I didn't know. I didn't know that really until the umberpiece from Clickcreate. So that was a really cool experience and I got to hop up on stage and get to hear a little bit about your process. That was a really cool. It's really cool and because, like with me, I'm a huge, I think audio adds a certain, there's just a certain amount of, I guess, depth or just a certain amount of umph that audio adds to, adds to art. So it's just as an audio file. It's something I very much appreciated and got to ask.
Speaker 1:Like you mentioned, you were, like you mentioned, you were a musician. Are you still in that band? Isn't it called Lady Tron? Lady Tron, that's right. That's right. How did that? I'm very curious, like number one, are you still in that? And I guess the second part of that is how did that come about and what? I guess? What's your interest in music?
Speaker 2:So I was full time with Lady Tron for well over 10 years and we I formed the band with you know a few friends a really long time ago. It was like 2000.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:Got it. That was when I was living in Liverpool. I was doing a masters in industrial design at the time, but I was also kind of side hustling as a DJ, you know, djing parties and clubs and stuff. And then I started getting into like producing music using keyboards and synthesizers. And you know, my friend and I, you know, thought, okay, we'll start a band, we'll start making the music that we want to listen to, that we want to hear, and you know that became a band of four people.
Speaker 2:We released our first single and that got enemy single of the week and we kicked off our careers really and we started just touring all over the world. You know, we were very lucky to be able to just start doing that. Just from day one we did a few small UK tours but then we just went and did world tours after that and this was just, you know, this was even, you know, before our first album came out and at the time I was full time as an industrial designer and I was taking my holidays, my time off, to go touring with the band. And you know, taking vacation to do rock and roll kind of takes it out on you and me. I was like, you know this is not really doing my design career much good and I thought, okay, I'd better step away from design and just go full time in music. So I went ahead and did that for 10 years and we released like six studio albums Actually it's seven now. I've left the band now officially just because I'm so busy with my other career.
Speaker 2:But you know, we did it all. We did like world tours. We had music on movies, computer games, video games, collaborated with Christina Aguilera, wrote some of them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I saw that. That's so wild. How did that happen?
Speaker 2:Well, she just got in touch with us one day and, like you know, I want to make this album of, like, cool music that you know that I've been, you know I've been listening to a lot of your stuff and I want to step into that world. And so, you know, we started like writing together and eventually we you know, me and my bandmate Daniel we went over to her house in Beverly Hills, which is actually it's Ozzy Osbourne's old house. Oh, my word, you could, actually you could still see the inverted upside down crosses on the door knobs. It's incredible. Yeah, we spent a few days of her and, just you know, put some tracks down and then ended up on an album that came out in I think it was 2008. And it's pretty, you know, pretty amazing and surreal experience.
Speaker 1:I can imagine and from the through line that it sounds, you know, it sounds like there was almost a it was like a right place, right time kind of thing where you know because I hear a lot of musician stories usually there's a pretty pretty like long period of struggling before you really ever get to do anything that y'all got to do. Like you know, it sounds like from a pretty short time from when you guys started. You guys got recognition early. You know you're able to go on tour pretty early, before the album even came out. I mean, that's just not a typical story that I hear. And then it's challenging, you know, and so to hear that that kind of was like was that like the kickstart? Were you taking photographs before then? Or was this kind of like the intro to doing that? I guess, when did you discover taking photographs?
Speaker 2:I was actually, before the band else, more into drawing, and I think my, my, my career in design was actually basically born out of my passion for drawing and and art. It was like a way of me, you know, pretty good at Designing stuff in 3d and making, you know, making things work and fixing things, and so my output at that point was just drawing and and still life drawing illustration. I was doing a lot of the bands album covers and single covers, but that took time and, sure, sure, when you know, when you're on tour, it's a very transient life where you're going from city to city and seeing all these places and life moves fast. And so I decided I'll pick up a camera and and I never really had an interest in photography before.
Speaker 2:I mean, I did a little course in kind of film photography in university, but I think once my eye was opened by travel and seeing all of these incredible places, taking pictures of them started out as a kind of travel diary, but then it became something a lot more, a Lot more involved creatively, and I decided I'm gonna, I'm gonna experiment, I'm gonna get into film photography again and Think about different types of films, different lenses, different techniques and Seeing all of these different places was like the impetus for that. So I kind of drove my passion in this medium. I got it. So I Got interested into photography, just via, via travel, and that was. I guess while I'm, you know, while you're touring, you're basically playing the same songs every day. It stops being creative in that way, and so that we became that hobby for me, that new creative output.
Speaker 1:I I guess I've never really thought about it like that, you know, and when I hear you know, like when I go watch a band on tour, it's yeah, it's usually the same song with a same song list, with a few exceptions, you know, I guess I've never really thought about it like that. So I think it's it's really cool to hear how it's One of those things where one path kind of leads to another and it sounds like that was like the way to Feel rejuvenated, to feel like refreshed, to feel, you know, like you're creating something new at the time. It's really fascinating, man, because I look at a, look at a lot of your work. Was there always like a?
Speaker 1:I guess maybe I'm jumping ahead too much, but I think just just following my curiosity here is I notice a lot of places that you know are in your work or like very desolate. You know they're very like there there's a lot of space. You know there's a lot of. There's not just much going on, you know. So I'd love to kind of know what kind of is your you know, fascination with space? I guess is a word, is there, is there something that that does for you? Is there a certain, I guess just curiosity, or when did that Come to fold? Because I just kind it's kind of a thing that I Notice as I browse your work.
Speaker 2:Um, I Think it comes from A childhood passion of just being out in nature.
Speaker 2:I grew up in the UK Pretty close to all of these national parks a lot different, a lot of different national parks just a few hours from where I lived in Liverpool, and there were we used to go as a family camping and hiking, and and that was, you know, as a as an introverted, awkward kid who didn't have many friends, who was you know shit at sports, this was my kind of happy place, you know. It was a place right now, completely free, and I was. You know, I felt I was always like surprised at like how vast these places are and and just you could just go anywhere. There were no fences. You just, you know you can, just you can just hike and hike and hike, which is, you know, something that I really relished as a kid and I think you know at that point I was Really enjoying these natural places, but also pouring over the pages of National Geographic, looking at images of Utah and and the Atacama Desert in Chile or you know, incredible kind of otherworldly desert places not in the UK.
Speaker 2:So I was kind of dreaming of that, and so the first time I was able to go to the USA and and tour, we kind of, you know, drove through all these places. Now's the first time I actually got to see them and I realized that, you know, I Couldn't, I Couldn't just like watch and move on to the next place. I knew that I had to kind of, you know, be creative about it, and I think, you know, my hobby was my way of kind of expressing that passion. I think, going going back to To the earlier point, I Think it's important to listen, to Listen to your inner voice. You know when, when you're doing something, let's say if you're, if you have a hobby.
Speaker 2:You know, while I was doing my training and design, my hobby was doing music. My hobby was like DJing and record collecting and to music, and so when I Joined the band, I got into that, but it also became my full-time activity. Hmm, so that became my full-time activity, and then I developed my passion for photography, which was a hobby. You know, it's like a side hustle and I felt that was my voice, that was my, that was, that was a calling. And so, fast forward, ten years later, photography is now my, is now my main thing. So it's yeah, I've interesting to think about these, these inner voices, that Kind of formed through hobbies, you know, that kind of show what your passions are and and what your future might be.
Speaker 1:Really thanks for sharing that. I mean it's I Feel like it can take a little while. It's something that I think really helped me as well and I I can appreciate the the one you know you had. You had your career as a as an industrial designer. Then music was your passion. You did that on the weekend and then photography was your passion and that became your full thing. Do you, do you have a side hustle now, or do kind of you know now that you've kind of found, like photography, does any sort of side hustle just get incorporated into the art that you create, or is there another side hustle that you have right now? I'm kind of curious about that, because that's a it's a fascinating concept of listening to that inner voice.
Speaker 2:I Don't have a side hustle which is anything different from photography right now, got it. But I think you might be right. I think there are Things that I get interested in which I can incorporate into my, my photography practice. Hmm, I think that's really interesting because a Lot of my interests.
Speaker 2:I do feel that Visual art is my calling and I don't think I'm gonna be doing anything else Other than that for the rest of my life. It's definitely my groove. But I do think that there are things which take my interest, which I can incorporate and kind of think of In new ways to combine with my visual art. You know things like. You know technological things Like drones, for instance. You know that that was something that I was able to. You know that I got really excited about and I was able to combine that with my photography in the inner In a different way to produce something, you know, quite fun and exciting. Yeah, I think that I think that new ideas, truly truly original ideas, are really really difficult to to come by these days. But I think if you're able to take two existing Things and kind of put them together in new ways, that that can inspire new ideas in small ways. Yeah, I.
Speaker 1:Like that because I look on your. I think it's I'm glad we're here, because I look at your website and it had. You have Photography, you have motion, you have sound, you know you have there's all these different, it seems like all these different culminations that all come together for a visual, you know, and sometimes an audio visual experience, and I think that's it's, it's really it's. It's never been easier To follow that voice, but it's also never been harder, and I'll explain what I mean by that is that, you know, we have Internet's, this vast canvas or this vast, you know, space of information that we have, and we're more connected Than ever, but I also feel like we're also more, at the same time, there's a duality, that there's a, there's a desire to like conform, or there's like a desire to like do what everyone else is doing, or to only show, you know you're to maybe not follow that voice, to follow the voice of a big crowd of people versus just that individual. I think for me, personally, it it's been a, it's been a struggle, because I very similar to you, I love technology, I love everything about it, you know, but it's it's hard to ignore the, the downside and some of the social pressures that come from having the whole internet in the palm of your hand Every single day for and if I'm being honest, especially as someone in the crypto space for most of the day, you know it's it's a bit of an information overload. So I can really appreciate the kind of Following that and finding ways to just incorporate that and to make like one, like one unique experience.
Speaker 1:And that was that was something that I noticed in I Think there was a video that I watched where you were talking about. The world has been so heavily documented, it's so well documented To this point, and so you know, in at least this is just my take on like what you're doing is to try to find a way to make that unique. How do you do something different? How do you, how do you make that different for someone to experience? And I've just always found that really fascinating, because a lot of people can go take a picture in the desert, you know, but to do something where you feel something Different than the hundreds of years, you know the hundred years, photography probably you probably know better than me, but you get, you go, and I'm saying the many years of documented documentation it's hard to, it's hard to create something different and to me that really only comes by, I guess, following that, that random inner voice. I guess it's not random, but yeah, the inner voice, I think it comes from being different.
Speaker 2:You know, if, if you feel, if you kind of embrace your own differences that you have between others, from others, then it allows you to Do Think in a way that fewer people do. And I think in my case I Didn't really enjoy being at school. I I never. This is probably. This is pretty similar to a lot of artists, I know. You know, we didn't fit in. We always felt different.
Speaker 2:You know, I got to the point where, you know, I always wanted to fit in but I got to the point where I was like I'm never gonna fit in. You know, other people just don't like the stuff I like and and then I started to just think I'm just gonna embrace that and I started just not like the mainstream. You know, whatever the crowds went for, I went for the other thing. I, yeah, I found my own thing that no one else has heard of.
Speaker 2:You know I going out and finding that record in the record store that no one else has found or has listened to and being the first person to play that to a crowd in a club, you know it's, it's a special kind of you know, I think I was able to feel to take that feeling of not fitting in and use that to my advantage later on in life, and I think it's it's allowed me to kind of think about things in a slightly different way, and I think that's, you know, that's something that will stay with me for the rest of my life. So it's it's definitely difficult with you know. It feels strange being, you know, a solitary artist who enjoys being alone all the time, but also be a part of a really close-knit community online. I think they're both two wonderful things and it's definitely a balance that you have to strike yeah, I mean because we're inherently humans, aren't just it's in our biology, we're inherently social creatures.
Speaker 1:You know, some people have different spectrums of that, but like at the, at the core level, like we, we need human connection to survive, you know, and it's, I guess, the, the that's real. Like I am, I really loved your, your bit there because it's something I can relate to. I never, especially in high school, I never really felt like I fit in with what anyone else was doing. I wanted to do the opposite. I was a, I was a gamer. You know I am a gamer, I'm still a game. I love games, you know.
Speaker 1:But like I never really felt on the same beat with the conversation that was happening. I'm very it's interesting, you know this. Like what we're doing now, you know now, now they look back through my childhood, what we're doing now is something. This is like having a one-to-one conversation. I think was something that I just thoroughly enjoyed, more than anything else. I was very much a.
Speaker 1:I don't like group conversations, I don't like parties. I like if it's a party, it's a get together of like three to five people that I know really well, you know, and it just that was really always my comfort zone and is never the rest of the world, never really fully clicked. And gaming was the first online community that I felt a part of. And I'm really, you know, especially as I just crossed the chasm of 30, you know, I feel I guess there's a part of me that's finally getting more comfortable with. What you just talked about is like really fully leaning into that, that just kind of like, hey man, what if I am a bit different, you know? So I'm curious to hear in that journey that you just started to embrace that. How long did that take for you to get to that point? Or like, I guess, what were some of the key moments that maybe, if there was a key moment at all or moments that kind of led you to, to really leaning into that, or what made you lean into it?
Speaker 2:I think it started that when I was a teenager, but I didn't really know. You know it was a. It was kind of a path that I'd started, that I started as a teenager. So I'm still struggling with my self identity. For many years, and I think, you know, through university for sure, and and I think throughout my my time as a musician as well, I definitely, I definitely was was searching for something over those years. Doing music was was very fulfilling and the closest thing at the time, you know, to to what my calling was. But there was still something missing.
Speaker 2:I knew in my heart that I was a, you know, a very much a visual person and you know, I think that's why I took on photography, because I was missing that element. And so once I had started getting in, you know, getting to grips with photography and then into the medium of video and you know, taking photography to different, you know different levels, like time-lapse photography and long exposure photography, and then eventually combining that with with music and sound design, everything started to make sense and these were just. They started as experiments that I did, you know my photography had got to the point where I was like, oh, I can do these really cool things and I can use these drones to do these things. What if I did this and then brought my, brought the music and the sound design into the same thing and create little looping episodic art pieces? Yeah, yeah, and then it was at that point things started to make sense, and that sounds like starting to make sense because everything that I had done in my life started to come full circle to produce one thing music, photography, moving image and also my passion for industrial design.
Speaker 2:You know, putting things together and kind of hacking things and using technology in different ways. All those things came together and so all these kind of pieces that I made, I just uploaded to them to Instagram and they were like my most popular pieces and that I really, really enjoyed doing them, because they tapped into all of these different parts of me and but there was no at the time, there was no real, you know, benefit to my business. You know, I couldn't print them, I couldn't really license them because they were so artistic and so specific, and so they were just sitting on my Instagram gathering likes and then then NFTs came along and then suddenly, you know they, they kind of became something much bigger, yeah, from. From something that was just an experiment, it developed into a new visual language, which became something way, way more significant, I think.
Speaker 1:So it was kind of, you know, really strange for those things to happen and to create something that ultimately made a lot of sense and a lot of meaning for me man, I was gonna you know that what you answered the question I was gonna ask, kind of how web3 and NFTs kind of played a role as your you know as an artist, or how that changed. You know the trajectory of your career and it sounds like you just answered that you know and a lot of you know because I. That's the fascinating thing for me is that it a lot like for me, a lot of artists that I that I see that maybe have been practicing before this. It almost just seems like a tool that was missing but no one really knew how to define like what was missing or like why it was. You know.
Speaker 1:And so something that you touched on there, though that I'm really fascinated about and I know it's something you're really passionate about is is visual language. You know, like visual language over style, like I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of people that there's a lot of debate on that on Twitter, unlike what that means. So I guess I'd really like to double click on that for a bit, or I guess linger on it is like what? How would you define like visual language, or how would you compare visual language to a style? I guess is the is the question that I have.
Speaker 2:I think they can. You know, when you're talking about it, they can basically be the same thing, but I think, when I when I'm thinking about what the two actually means, using the term visual language, it's just a much more powerful way of describing the art that you make, because it is a language, and with a language you're able to not just not just create one thing, but you're able to articulate many different ideas and meanings and for it not feel, you know, like the same thing each time. It can manifest itself differently just by using, you know, the same tools in your toolbox. It is like, you know, color palette, it's composition, it's cadence.
Speaker 2:There are so many things that you can kind of combine and and you basically find this over the years of just creating and creating things that you that just pop up time and time again in the work that you create. Yet that's your visual language and then the more you lean into that, the more developed it becomes and the more adept you are at telling different stories using that language. And I think you know, when you think about style, it's like you know it feels a lot more on the surface. You know it's like saying something in a, in a cool English accent or something you know, I think for me it's this way it's. It's a much more general, much more powerful term to think about when I'm thinking about the art that I create.
Speaker 1:I like that. I've often struggled in some of the conversations that I've had and I tried to find talk about things that I knew were there, but I just like that we're missing but I didn't really know what it was. Is that you know? Sometimes when I ask artists, you know I guess I try that's. The question I was asking is like you know what is your visual language? But I kept trying to. Style was really the only word that came to mind. I think it's just the first. It just is what comes up naturally. So the way I would, you know, kind of go around that is you know, like what is your current style to? You know, like today, how would you define your style? You know, that was kind of my way around it, but I remember, you know, like the way you present that.
Speaker 1:That to me sounds like something a little bit more personal and a little bit more unique and something that comes from, something that comes from within. And I'm fishing a little bit here only because I very, you know, I found my path. I found, you know, my path through life in a really interesting way, through getting sober. You know, it was a pretty, it was a pretty personal internal experience that I had. You know your art is very your art feels very personal and and what I've learned if I've learned anything from just being here and talking to you know a bunch of artists is that you know the external world has a lot of influence, but mostly it comes from a, from a inner desire. You know, I guess, was there a, I guess really what caused you to go inward, or was did you always go inward as more of kind of like an introverted person? I would just kind of love to know if there's, yeah, maybe anything personal that caused you to search inward versus external.
Speaker 2:I think at all it's. It's always come from within, as an introverted person, it's definitely how I see the world and how I see that manifesting in my visual art and also in my music. So, a painter that I really admire Casper David Friedrich. He talked about his you know how he paints and his, his visual language and his, the themes that are, you know, prevalent in a lot of his images. He was you know he did that the paint famous painting, wanda above the Sea of Fog. You know the rear view shot of the hiker on the rocky outcrop and and a lot of like clouds and fog before him. And you know he was also the first person to paint a winter scene which felt bleak and felt cold and felt brutal, because that's how it is, you know, before him like warmth and and people having fun and, you know, happy scene. Yeah, he talked about his work as as taking something that only the inner eye can see and expressing that outwardly in his art and being able to share that to other people, and so I definitely think that that's that's exactly what I try to do with my photography, and it was always difficult with photography, because the camera just takes a picture of what?
Speaker 2:What it sees, sure, and, and so I was always battling with how do I take what my inner eye sees and put, put that into photograph, and so this is why I was always experimenting now is experimenting with film. I was experimenting with long exposure techniques, experimenting with different types of lighting, you know, to create something that is inside my. You know that I am imagining but in the real world, and so it really started. I think it really became a thing when I started experimenting with lights on the drone, where I was able to create something that had never been seen before. You know, I've always wanted to create pictures that no one has seen before, or pictures that haven't been made before, or show things familiar things in a completely unfamiliar light, and being able to modify a drone and modify a light to create something that I've always just imagined about was was pretty important. It was very important stage in my career.
Speaker 1:I'm starting to see the, the elements of where your career as an industrial designer comes in. You know, talking about modifying the drones, modifying, modifying the light, that's super, that's super fascinating and I and I really like the, I really like the, the callback to, to that painting around, kind of being a little bit bold to show something a little bit more bleak or cold or just real, you know, or authentic. You know, and it's really cool to kind of hear that that inspiration that drove you to, I guess drove you inward, because inward is not necessarily. Again, kind of going back to a previous part of our conversation, it's real easy to not do that at times. It's for it's it's it's sometimes can be challenging to, to trust that that one voice versus the, the thousands that you, that you see online, and I'd love to, I guess I want to kind of hang around and talk about the, the light, for a little longer.
Speaker 1:You know, I guess what does? I know art is very much about what, the questions that the viewer asks after consuming. You know, I've learned that, at least in the couple years that I've been here, is that arts more about questions versus answers. When it comes to the light, you know for you, I guess what it does that represent. Does the light represent the same thing in all of your pictures or does it have it take on a different meaning depending on the piece that you create?
Speaker 2:I think it does have a different meaning depending, depending on each piece. Sometimes I use the light as a, you know, as a shaping tool. You know just being really technical about it. I'm thinking of an Ansel Adams with my drone light at night on a place that you know isn't possible with the Sun or the moon, because the Sun and the moon don't go there. So I'm able to, rather than wait for the right moment, I'm actually creating that moment with my drone, so I'm able to use that light as a way to show a subject matter and to draw your eye to it, using this otherworldly light, you know, using this way of showing it in a way that no one's seen before. And then other times I've been using it to actually literally paint light, where I'm using the drone as a paintbrush or a light brush, where you can see the trail of light as the drone flies.
Speaker 2:And I actually discovered that by accident, just because, while I was using the light to shape the light onto things, I noticed that the lines left behind by the drone were really, really interesting. It had a kind of land art feel to it, like a light installation, and they were kind of random. I was flying in all sorts of different. I wasn't even thinking about how I was flying the drone, I was just getting it from place to place. But I thought, wow, this is cool. And then what if I fly in a straight line? What if I fly it in a circle? What if I try and make these shapes in the sky using the drone as a pencil or a paintbrush? So that became something that was quite different from what I was doing before, where the drone itself was a paintbrush and that became the focal point of the art rather than the thing I was trying to light.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating man. Yeah, because when I look at it it's just that's. The rest of the location is secondary. I can't really help it. I guess I can't really help but just be immediately drawn to that. And thanks for sharing the story about how that came to be. Very similar to Bob Ross. Just everything usually is a happy little accident, it is.
Speaker 2:Even the use of artificial light was an accident for me. Wow, it was back in Almost 10 years ago, 2014,. I was taking the time lapse video in Trona Pinnacles in California, like a really crazy desert landscape with Pinnacles coming up into the sky, and it was at night. I was taking a time lapse image with my camera and then, all of a sudden, this truck just drives into the landscape with its lights fully on, lighting everything up, and I was like my fucking time lapse is ruined. I just kind of sat there.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to draw attention to myself, because what is a pickup truck doing in the middle of the night in the desert landscape? So I was like nope, I'm just going to stay here. And the camera just kept shooting and I realized afterwards that the headlights illuminated the Pinnacles in a way that blew my mind. This was something that no sun or no moon could ever do, and I realized using artificial light was a way of literally creating my own moment, my own world that couldn't be replicated using nature, and doing it all on camera too. That was fascinating.
Speaker 1:That's a really cool man. Wow, yeah, because I feel like a lot of at least the photography that I've seen. There's a lot of focus on how the natural light affects either the subject, the landscape affects the person, so it's a pretty bold. It's pretty interesting to look at how artificial light in, I guess, the physical world has that impact as well. I'm just, yeah, there's a few things that are stewing around and that makes me wonder, or I guess that brings me to another topic of when it comes to artificial light, I want to jump the bridge over to artificial intelligence as well.
Speaker 1:There's obviously a lot of very similar to I look at, before I get into this, the charge around.
Speaker 1:It is very similar to the charge around how I viewed crypto when it first came around in 2021, where I'm of the belief of the more outrage there is towards something, the more innovative that it really is and the stronger the staying power is, because it's undoing a lot of things that people have gotten cozy with.
Speaker 1:So I preface that that's really kind of how I view artificial intelligence is that there's strong opinions on both sides and I don't think anyone's wrong. I think there are a lot of it's valid, but, as an artist who has been creating for decades, how do you view this, like, how do you kind of view this coming into the world? I guess, what is it that? Have you, number one, have you incorporated that in any of your work, or have you experimented, or what are some of the fun ways you've experimented maybe not necessarily officially incorporated it, and I guess, how do you view that in the next I don't want to put it too long of a time horizon because things change so fast but even in just like the next year or two, how do you kind of think about it?
Speaker 2:I have incorporated it into my work via a collaboration that I did with an AI artist called Yeni Passenin. She's in Helsinki, in Finland. I first found her work a couple of years ago two years ago and it was like nothing I've seen before and it wasn't straight AI. It was something beyond that, more complex and more sophisticated than that, and from getting to know her and talking to her about her process, I learned that she does a lot of digital painting as well, so she actually uses AI to create basic shapes that inform and layer into as a kind of foundation for her work, and her premise is that AI because AI is non-human it can create things that humans are incapable of creating. So she uses that to inform her human art and combines those to create something which is hybrid. And I found that really, really interesting and also had parallels to how I work hybridising work and putting two things together to create something original. And then I asked her do you want to collaborate? And at that point I'd never collaborated with anyone, not even before the NFT space and we started working over six months on a series of work called Metamorph, which combined her AI creations with my drone-lit landscapes, and it was really cool because our work is very different, but together it felt like the resulting art that came out of it felt like more than the sum of its parts. It felt like an alchemy putting two things together and something unexpected coming out of it.
Speaker 2:And for me, creatively, it kind of it almost allowed me to break rules. It allowed me to kind of go beyond what I was doing. You know, I think being able to work with someone else and doing collaboration, there's an immediate sense of freedom that I had, being able to kind of go outside. You know, I had invisible boundaries that I'd set for myself even though I was doing what I was doing. So, you know, thinking about collaborations, I think it's really healthy for an artist to do for sure and obviously with the right collaborator.
Speaker 2:But I think with AI it's just very powerful, you know, to inspire work. And I think with all new mediums there's always this good stuff and this bad stuff, and I think the best stuff is where the human element is kind of intertwined with you know, in that process, where you can sense the human behind the AI, or the human with the AI creating something that AI couldn't normally produce by itself, that humans couldn't normally produce by themselves. So I think that's the power. You know, it's a combination of AI with humans behind it and creating something which is original and unique.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've quite ever heard it said that that definition will probably stick with me for a while, specifically around the through line of you know, there's things that AI can create and then there's things that humans can create, but there's things that each can create that are kind of mutually exclusive. And what I think about is really is our relationship to technology and kind of how that has evolved. Because even going back to it's such a fascinating topic, because I mean, I go back to like when, you know, steve Jobs pulled the first iPhone out of his pocket. During that keynote there was a I don't know if visceral is the right word, but it was just a very it was very emotionally impactful, you know, at least to me, when I saw that and that could be his charisma, that could have been the device that could have been just me discovering, you know, my love for technology and, for the first time, I guess, me feeling comfy enough to really express that, you know. And so, as we go along, I think it's really interesting that, like you know, and there's going out in a little bit of a limb here, but it almost just makes sense that it's going to become something. That's just so we're going to talk to it like it's a human, you know, and I think we already are, and I think that you look at, you know people that are at the top of their field in AI work.
Speaker 1:It's kind of how people describe it is that it's just a. It's an assistant, it's a, it's a, it's something that's just there. And if you talk to it like it's a human or if you interact with it I guess you could say, because you can do a lot of different ways Then it brings it to life in a whole new, in a whole new way, you know. And so I find that I that's the long, the long-winded ramble is saying that I think that there's a, there's a very unique through line, there is a very unique, I guess, result that can be achieved through through both. And it brings me back to also, just, you know, generative code based art as well.
Speaker 1:You know, is the art the, you know, like what is goes back to like defining what the art is, you know, and our. Is it the person who's creating the parameters? Is it the machine? Is it a mix of both? Is it the collector? Is it? There's just a yeah, going on a going on a long-winded ramble here, because you touched on something. I think it's really. It's really important, especially as we evolve, and it makes a lot more sense. The way you defined it as creating something that neither could create on their own, I think it's just an awesome. I think it's just a good way to like. It's just it feels. It feels right, I guess, is the way of what I'm trying to say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know it's like when, when you see a child's drawing, when the child, a child draws like a child and and you can tell a difference when you see an adult trying to draw like a child, it it doesn't. It doesn't look the same. You know it's the two, the you know the two creators are completely different there, but completely different mindset to each other. It's impossible for one to replicate the other, to create what the other creates, and I think that's really interesting to think about. You know that. We know what are, what are the limits of of humanity. You know we all have emotions. Everything we create is is, you know, influenced by our feelings, but computers and AIs don't have that, so they're able to create something completely free of that. And then you know what is that? What even is that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I just, I think that I think we're just in for a fun ride. It's. It's what, what I gather from that. Yeah, that's super fascinating man, and I yeah that that'll help me look at it in an entirely different light. Yeah, man, so okay, something that I definitely wanted to definitely observe tonight.
Speaker 1:I wanted to learn more about how this came to be. You know, we kind of touching back on your early days and having your early days on Instagram, kind of having these, this art, collect, likes, you know for as, as you phrased it like that, it was just something that was brand new, it was something that was uniquely you, but it didn't really have like, it didn't really have its full legs yet. And you know, and it's, it's an inherently, you know it's, it's a digital, you know just digital. You know it's a mix of physical and digital creation, but it's, but it lives on a digital platform. How do you look at, how do you look at transporting, or what are some of the new ways that you've taken that digital work and found unique ways to like, display that physically, because I found I've just had a recent, as digital as we are, there's this kind of been this craving for physical as well, and I don't know where that's come from. Maybe it's just me looking at screens too many too much, but I know you did.
Speaker 1:There was, there was a. There was a. There were a couple of prints that I noticed on your website that looked incredibly different than any other print that I had seen before.
Speaker 2:So I started really developing my photography practice about 10 years ago with the view of, like, I want to make this a thing. You know, I need to make photography my thing, my, my living or, you know, you know it needs to, kind of needs to be part of my life. And so one of the first things I did was to take all the negatives that I had shot over the course of 10 years before, scan those and learn how to make prints. And so I actually got myself a show at a gallery in Chicago and I was like, okay, I need to make an exhibition now of you know, 10 printed works. And I had no idea how to make those prints. So I was like, you know, I went to a local lab and learned how to scan my own negatives and work on the raw files, print them, frame them and produce these.
Speaker 2:You know, beautiful physical pieces of art which could look great in a gallery, and that has always been. You know, the printmaking has always been very much a foundation of what I do. I feel that a photograph is just best viewed as a print, you know, because it's reflected light rather than emitted light. You can just have it. You can see the texture of the paper. You can see the colors up close. You can get right up close to it and see all the details. It has a presence that is completely different from a screen. There are great screens, but they also emit light. They kind of look, you know, the color is kind of funky in, you know, a different time to day, they get hot, they're heavy and they don't always work. And also, you know, if you go up close, you see pixels, but you could show animations on them.
Speaker 2:And so when I was creating these pieces as NFTs, I was also really interested in how I showed these NFTs in gallery spaces. And how do I show a digital animation in a gallery space but without resorting to a screen on the wall? And so I had this idea of trying to combine, like a traditional fine art framed print with the digital animation. And, you know, basically using a 3D projection mapping system, where I was able to separate, you know, the stuff that moved in my animations with the stuff that didn't move as the print, and being able to combine those two. And you know, being able to combine those two and using that projection technique, I was able to make a print that you know looked great on the wall but also moved in the same way that my animation would, and seeing it for the first time, I was like, wow, this works. This is my first time trying this out. I don't fucking works and I thought, okay, this is going to be.
Speaker 2:This makes so much sense. This is going to be the physical component to the NFT, and so when the NFT was collected, it also came with the framed print and the 3D projector to the, and that went to the winning collector, and you know it's. It feels good because even when the animation is switched off, it's still a fine art print on the wall. It looks exactly the same as the background to the digital animation, but without the digital animation it's kind of difficult to describe without. Without. Yeah, yeah, no, I think you did it really well though.
Speaker 1:I guess that that, to me, is the most fascinating parts, because it gives the, it gives the collector the option to choose how they want to, how they want to view it or how they want to experience it. And I think the only part and you may have said said this, but I was lost in, lost in the way it looked when I saw I think wasn't the art pleb that collected it. Is that correct? No, it wasn't someone else. Okay, I was definitely.
Speaker 2:I was definitely remembering that there were a few so okay, the first one was Tom think flexible Got it. He collected the first one, one called an electric storm, and then the second one was collected by Studio 137. And then, and then a third one was collected by Pixel Pete, and then he was like oh, I got it.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, man. That's so cool. I mean, so is the. Is that projector? Is that in? It's like it's in the back of the print? No, it's on the front.
Speaker 2:Oh my, God so it needs. It can either be on a table or a podium or it can be mounted on a ceiling. Okay, and it's really hard to calibrate because it's basically it's like down to the pixel. I am calibrating the projector so that the projection of the light onto the fine art print is exactly in the same place as what the landscape is on is printed. Got it? And because I think the the coating that I have on the print it shows the projected light pretty well, that's incredible. I apply a special coating to all of my prints where you know, if I did it in a gloss then it wouldn't catch the projections as much, so so basically, it's this crazy unique digital analog piece which doesn't exist anywhere else and like this very, very, very much a single edition print that goes with the digital. Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2:It definitely like ticks the boxes of the things that I'm passionate about. You know, the animated thing together with the physical thing that can actually, you know, show and kind of have on the wall when you have people around you can talk about it. And that actually led on to how do I create this for people who, you know, don't have the ETH to buy one of one. You know, how do I create something that is like this in a more affordable art piece? And that's how 14th century series came about, where it actually started out as an animated one of one piece. And I teamed up with the collector, a guy called Rob Moore he goes under Chevy Pop on Twitter. I know Chevy Pop, yeah, great guy.
Speaker 2:And so we took a still frame from the animation like 201 still frames, and that was a collection of unique still frames from this animation and people could collect these still frames and then they could also use the token to redeem a physical print from a print lab. And this was all at cost, because you buy the entity, you claim the print. You know it was all like. For me, that was like, you know, the entity is the master, if you like.
Speaker 2:So collectors were able to get the print, have that on the wall, and then, rather than using a projector, I was able to use an AR app called Art of Vive, which is on your phone, and it's an app that you just point the camera at the art on the wall and it automatically triggers the animation so everyone can experience the one of one kind of in the comfort of their own homes. It's pretty cool because you can kind of do that over dinner and like talk about it. This is an NFT. You know, see this physical art on the wall, point your phone at it and it comes alive, and it's all of a sudden. It brings like a new meaning to what an NFT is. So I found that really exciting to do.
Speaker 1:I'm really happy, you, I'm really happy I brought this up because I think that that's hearing that story it's a common. I often use my family as a barometer of you know, trying to explain what I'm doing. And it's like, if I can't explain, if I can't ask, if I can't answer their questions, then it really like that's on me, you know, and that's on us as a community. And like finding unique ways to like make it more attractive to where it's like wow, you can't do that without the token. What value does the token provide to the artwork? Or like, what role does it play? And I guess, when it comes to collecting a piece, and so I find that like those ways are incredibly exciting, I think for me just personally exciting, because it's like, wow, yeah, we have a few things where, like, you clearly can't do this without the token, or the token is a very meaningful, it's a very meaningful object and yeah, it's just a very meaningful object. And something that you mentioned was like the NFT kind of being like as like the master file, you know, of the artwork, I guess kind of moving more to a basic, a more kind of like commercial print. Like when you have like a one-of-one token.
Speaker 1:How do you view prints, like when it comes to a one-of-one? Do you like say you wanted to sell prints of that one-of-one? Is that something that I guess? How do you view that? How do you view the token and the prints in a situation like that? Because I can see, like for me there's like two different. You know, there's two different emotions that I feel. One is like I'd rather the one-of-one just be the one-of-one and there not be any other prints, but I could also see how having a bunch of prints could drive value back to the one-of-one. So I'd love to kind of know how you personally think about that and kind of the dialogue that you have maybe with collectors around that subject, if you do at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I definitely have a point of view on that, and I think it all comes down to whether an artwork is crypto-native or not. If it is a piece of work that kind of existed before an NFT, then I think it's, you know, as long as you communicate with the collector and make that be completely transparent. You know there are additions of this image already floating around. Are you okay with that? And you know a lot of my collectors are completely fine with that and actually, you know, celebrate its prominence as a print that a lot of people can have. You know it's like merch, if you like, and so I think in that way, the key is communication with the collector. You know, if they're happy with it, then it's cool.
Speaker 2:Other times, like 14th Century Series, which is completely crypto-native, there was a way of being able to redeem a print just via having the token in your wallet, and I think that was really important, that it was going to be at cost, that no one was going to be paying fine-opered prices for this, because you have the master, you have the thing, and so that was pretty. You know quite an important part of that project and you could literally just have it for the price of production and shipping. If I were to create a one-of-one now of a still image, I wouldn't think of making and selling prints. I would definitely make a print a single-edition print for the collector, and if there was demand for a print, then I'd talk to the collector and just say what do you think? And then it becomes something which is definitely a collaboration between artist and collector, and I think that's. You know, it's a really cool thing to do these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I like that man and I like the way that there's not really a single answer, you know, because I think that that's incredibly important and I remember, you know, because I bought a print by one of my favorite illustrators, jay Ruffhouse or he goes by Zade Zade Kirtzky on Twitter and you know there was a one-of-one that he sold to Deez and Sobi back in 2021. And then he did something very similar to what you did. He was like, hey, I want to make like a hell version of this print, you know, because it was like a blue-green, kind of like sci-fi, purple as well. And he was like, hey, I want to make like a red and black, you know, a central version of this as like a limited run of 16. And it was kind of one of those things where you know he's like we'll never make these again, but this is something I feel compelled to do.
Speaker 1:And there was a level of collaboration between, you know, between Deez and Sobi as well as Zade, and it was really as a collector, because with me, it's like if someone owned a one-of-one and then I was able to buy a print without their knowledge of that, you know, or without that communication being had, I would feel kind of weird owning that, you know, just as a newer collector to that, so I like that. I guess the question I had to drill into this a little bit more is you know what defines it as crypto-native, like something that you took and you minted onto the blockchain, you know? Or is there like a redeemable component? Like what does it mean by the work? Being crypto-native, I guess, is the question.
Speaker 2:If I'm creating something that is specifically going to be an NFT, then that's crypto-native.
Speaker 2:If it doesn't exist, you know, if it didn't exist before you know this, you know whatever we're doing right now, then it's if I'm making it for the space, if I'm making it, as you know, thinking about what it is as a token, as an NFT, even as a physical later on, then it's like specifically for that.
Speaker 2:A lot of artists here are, you know, they have been, you know we've been making work for decades and there are incredible pieces of work which we feel have to be archived on the blockchain as a kind of immutable archive of our work. And that's definitely how I see the NFT in a lot of you know work that has existed before this time as a kind of digital artist proof. And that's kind of how I kind of viewed it as a way of kind of having it make sense to me in existence with like a run of limited edition prints. You know you have this image, it exists in these editions, but there is also a digital artist proof. Normally you just have an artist proof, but now there's a digital artist proof, which is the NFT, and then it just becomes another line item in your inventory and as long as the collector is okay with what they have and what they've collected, then it's all good.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 1:That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense because I've often wondered you know how, because I, you know, especially with you you look at artists that are just digitally native, that haven't had a career before this. I think maybe their first stab at being a career artist like everything basically is, at least right now, or most of it is crypto native, you know, especially if they're in this space, and so I've often wondered I'm glad that you talked about that because I've often wondered how people, how artists that have had a career before this, how they think of how you really integrate it to like make sense. You know, or like how it makes sense to both you as well as the people that your previous collectors as well as brand new collectors you know of your work, and so I'm happy that you went there, because I feel the same way is that it's a. It's a.
Speaker 1:The provenance is probably, at least in my eyes, the most important, one of the most important value adds that this really brings to art. I was chatting with with cardboard a while back, like way earlier this year, and talking about you know in the old, you know in the like, how forgery, you know, is like one of the most. Pot was like one of the most popular crafts, like back, you know, back, you know, centuries ago, and it was so easy to forge and people had whether it was within writing, whether it was the actual painting itself. And you look at the way provenance is tracked today and it's like it's like in a black box, it's kind of like at an auction house. It's like kind of like I told you, you know, just trust me, and that just doesn't seem to me, like that just doesn't seem. I guess I just don't agree with it. You know, it just doesn't like if I'm spending that much X amount of money for an artwork, having something that no human could alter is very important to me, you know, and having that, having it live publicly, is also very important to me as well. So I like the way you think about that and I think that makes to me it helps. It's a good. I think it's a good North Star and a good way to think about what that means, especially if you're an artist that is kind of coming into the space or, you know, you're still trying to figure it out, because there's a lot of people I'm sure that are.
Speaker 1:So, as we're gonna wrap up here, wanna, you know, kind of ask a question that I thought of last night as I was taking my dog on a walk. You know, you've been creating for a while. You've embraced this technology full, like, full on. You know, it's really cool to watch, it's really cool to see how someone how someone like you, you know navigates the space and how you think about it, and it's been a treat getting to like learn about your journey and your history.
Speaker 1:I guess the question I had is you know what was easier? You know, if you were to be an artist I'm gonna frame this in a, I'm gonna Add a little bit of context. You know, I look at, say, an art, say you were an artist just starting today, versus when you were starting back when you started. I guess what's easier Today than it was back then? And also, what was easier maybe back then Then it is today, like, what it like if you, if you were to like create? Now it's you're like man, like I don't know if I could do it today, or I don't know if, like, I Would enjoy it as much, or I don't know. The process just seems a lot harder. How, like what? What was easier than versus. What is easier now is the the simple version of that question. I Think what's easier?
Speaker 2:now Is that there is a really strong creative community online that didn't really exist at this scale a few years ago, and Not just Not just a creative community within a meet and within a medium, but a multidisciplinary one, hmm. So, you know, twitter is a place where I am seeing. You know the people I follow. You know their artists there's sculptors, their illustrators, that their painters, that their 3d artists, that their composers, ai artists, and we're all together in this mixing pop and I think that's being able to enter the community and everyone is super nice and inclusive and it's really easy to see and be inspired by all of these different forms of art around you. Whereas, you know, maybe a few years ago, 2020 or 2021, you know when it was just you know, things were just kind of happening. It was like I was still very much solitary as a, as a creator, I was just getting to grips with like, oh, there are so many artists here. You know we're all kind of like starting to kind of come together and you know, now, now it's a lot more mature and it's easier to kind of Be inspired by all of these different types of different forms of art and also, you know, everyone who's hanging out now, or people who have been hanging out for the past, you know, a few years, who will kind of In it for the long run. Yeah, but I think you know everyone is very welcoming to people who who want to enter the space. So I think that's, that's definitely a big advantage of Entering the space now.
Speaker 2:I think, obviously, like you know, it was easier to, I Guess, get a footing in in the space, you know, a few years ago because it was smaller. You know, there was this kind of excitement, this crazy excitement that everyone had. That everything, you know, everything was still very much emerging and emerging at a really fast pace, and so I think at that point it was very it was easier to Kind of get your art out there. I guess I think you know I'm speaking from a position of, you know, a unique position where you know, my first NFT really struck a chord and did really well. So you know, I think my, my point of view is is unique, but I think it was. It was definitely there was an energy which really was present at that point, which is maybe less so now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're, they're. That's a great way to it's a great way to put it. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of. I think as things mature, it's naturally the the barrier maybe becomes a little harder. But I think the flip side of that is, as a mature community, I also think that you know, at least the way I view it is that there's a beauty, there's a, there's a beauty and there's also a. There's all, there's also, there's a. There's an upside, there's a downside to having this community be attached to a financial market. You know and.
Speaker 1:The plus side of that and I think you know, as a as a creative, it's got to just be mind-numbing as well. I think it's just mind-numbing for everybody Because it's hard to it's hard to conceptualize what happens. But I think, now that I've, I can say I've lived through my first, you know, full, full cycle here, is that there's that growing excitement that I felt when I came in here in 2021. It feels like we're kind of almost you know I'm not trying to speak with too much Hope I'm here, but you know it kind of feels that we're at that spot where there's fresh ideas. You know the people that are here are the people that want to be here for a while. There's a lot of great art being shown in the timeline. There's a lot of, there's a lot of fun things happening, there's a lot of good of ideas, good ideas being shared and it feels Like there's a more well, I guess, a lot more welcome now.
Speaker 1:Even two months ago, I would have probably given you a different answer. You know everyone was at each other's throats. You know there's still a lot of scammers, a lot of grifters, a lot of you know a lot of people Just not being welcome. It just wasn't a fun time, you know, to be around. But I think through Some of those cycles the people that have stuck around get a little bit more. I guess you get a little bit thicker skin. But also we realize that there's also this, this natural kind of an evident inevitability of being tied to a financial market that when some of the bad actors are gone, or when people have you know are left, then people feel more comfortable Welcoming more people in if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:And I think that that's kind of at the point where we're at now, where it's like we, if you try to enter in From, you know, I'd say, may to October, it's just a really you probably got a really bad taste of what what this community was, but I I would generally agree with you now that it's. It's at that point where it is incredibly welcoming, because I remember the way I felt when I didn't really know a damn thing when I came in here and it was like people I asked questions and people answered it. It's like whoa, like that's not. I'm not used to that Like this is, this is really cool, what is this place? And then the blow run happened and I just tried to hang on, you know.
Speaker 2:You just never know. Is it gonna be another bull market? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, man.
Speaker 1:You know, I try to keep these conversations as evergreen as possible and not as topical, but it's hard to, it's hard to, it's hard to deny, it's hard to like deny the desire for that, to potentially, maybe Possibly think that we're almost there, um so, or Ruben, I want to, you know, rat, as we're, you know, kind of at the hour and a half mark here. But I just want to say, you know, on recording, I just want to thank you for your time, your energy, your thoughtfulness, the depth of your responses like this is. I was just, I was doing a meditation earlier this morning and I was thinking like the meditation was a reflection on, like what makes me kind of feel at home on the inside, and like these types of conversations is really what came to mind for the 10 minutes out of that 20 minute reflection. So I just want to say thank you for, yeah, sharing this with me and sharing your time. It's been a treat.
Speaker 2:Yes, it's a pleasure to Talk about these things with you. You know it's not every day you can get on on on a call and just talk about these other things. Just talk about these ideas. You know you often just like think about them, write them down, tweet them. It's nice to be able to chat face to face with someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it really is. I need to get better at the tweeting, the things I'm usually better at talking about him.
Speaker 2:This is because I really don't do space. I can't do spaces, I'm not, I don't have that.
Speaker 1:I'll, I'll be, you know, I'll tell you it's not my comfort zone. This is, this is my you know, kind of like. Earlier I was like I'm a more of a one-to-one type of person and like, when there's an audience, it naturally makes me more nervous. Yeah, however, I will say that it is nice to be able to do both, because I we do, you know, at Schiller we do, I host the Y art space on Mondays, which has been really incredible and it's been a great kind of growing a a.
Speaker 1:I'm not used to structure and you, in spaces, you just have to have so much structure, you know, for it to be meaningful, for it to make a difference and for people to feel cozy but also feel like the audience is getting value, you know. But I will say and it's translated over to this podcast, it's helped me structure this a little bit, a little bit more, but not too much. And it's but, yeah, it's your questions question. This is my, this is my preference Over over that. I will, I do it and it's great and I love it and it's fun. It's got its own set of like, positives and and fierce. But make a mistake, I agree.
Speaker 2:It's not my comfort zone either, which is why I agree to do it. Yeah, you know, it's something, it's a skill that you just need to. They just need to house, so totally totally.
Speaker 1:Man. Well, as we wrap this up where we're you know. Where do you want people to go? Is there any? I guess you know number one when do you want people to go to like, if they were to search you for the first time, would you want people to go to your website, your Twitter and also just, is there anything else that anything that you're currently working on, without telling too much, that you'd like to share?
Speaker 2:People can check out my Twitter or my Instagram, which is Ruben. I'm Currently working on things which are kind of not photography but is still visual. It's very much kind of in the works but Can't say much about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I figured I didn't want to. I didn't want to probe you too much there. Well, cool, man, just hang out for a little bit afterwards and we'll we'll let this finish uploading. But again, ruben, just thank you again for your time and Look forward to having this published. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for listening to the Schiller curated podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. As we close out today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the curated podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly Twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, at Schiller XYZ. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remember, if you're looking for it art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time, this is Boona signing off.