CURAT3D: Han - Sculpting the Digital Art Spectrum with CryptoCubes, Autonomous Artistry, and the Aura of Algorithms

On the Season Finale of Season 2, we were joined by Han, a trailblazing generative artist and visionary behind the CryptoCubes project. As his tale unfolds, from architectural roots to the forefront of digital artistry, we delve into the essence of his self-taught journey, tracing the influence of gaming on his initial coding experiences and witnessing the remarkable ascent of his creations to the prestigious halls of LACMA.

In this episode, we unravel the intricacies behind the mesmerizing CryptoCubes. These aren't your average art pieces; they're a testament to the power of algorithmic generation and blockchain synergy. Han shares the thrill of collaborating with over 110 artists, weaving together a tapestry of individuality and community that blurs the lines between creator and creation. We transition to discussing the integration of augmented and virtual reality with these cubes, imagining a world where art leaps off the screen and becomes an intimate part of our everyday existence.

Our conversation wouldn't be complete without a foray into the broader realms of cryptocurrency and the ripple effects of projects like CryptoPunks. Han and I tackle the complex dance of decentralization in the art market, debating the future of NFT marketplaces and the critical role of curation and self-promotion for artists navigating this digital renaissance. Join us as we explore the boundless potential of creativity intersected with cutting-edge technology.

Han links:

Website: https://www.han.io
X (Twitter): https://x.com/Hanrgb

SHILLR:

Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz

Music by 800DB

Twitter: https://twitter.com/800dbmusic

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

GM, this is Boone and you're listening to the Shiller Curated podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with Han, a generative artist pushing the boundaries of what can be done through the medium of computers. Han is also the creator of CryptoCubes, which have a place in the LACMA permanent collection. In this episode, we explore the concept and vision of CryptoCubes, art as a smart contract, the intersection of AI and blockchain, and much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guests may own NFTs discussed. Now let's grab some coffee and dive into this conversation with Han GM. Good evening, han. How are you? Hi, I'm good and you Doing good. Man, glad you can make it. This is an honor to treat. I'm happy to be able to sit down and record with someone halfway across the world and who does a lot of really fun things with code that I'm sure we'll get into here in a bit.

Speaker 2: 1:09

Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, I think it will be fun, Chad.

Speaker 1: 1:13

Yeah, totally man. So it's really interesting how the space started, and I'll tell you for me personally, I'm not sure how long you've been in the crypto art and Web 3 scene. Would love to maybe learn, get to know more about that, but I just didn't start learning about generative art until last year, and so you know.

Speaker 2: 1:39

This is the. There's so much to learn.

Speaker 1: 1:41

Dude, there is so much to learn and I think honestly, I felt a little intimidated by it for the longest time because I was here in early 2021 and watching all the art blocks.

Speaker 2: 1:51

I know, don't get it in the bit, intimate it, it is just fun. It is so much to learn, but it is fun.

Speaker 1: 1:58

Totally, man, totally. Well, I'd love to maybe just kind of start that with yourself, like when did you get into, I guess, when did you realize coding was fun? Or when did you start learningstart to know that you enjoyed code?

Speaker 2: 2:12

So I'm a self-taught creator. Actually, I learned everything by myself. My background was I studied architecture and what I was always interested in different ideas, some kind of like Uncommonational ideas in my projects always. And yeah, I've been interested since I was in high school and yeah, basically I started in high school.

Speaker 1: 2:46

Started in high school. What were some of those like, I guess, what were some of the earlier projects that you worked on? What was like one of the first things that you really put together with code?

Speaker 2: 2:57

With code, Just simple game stuff. I think everyone would know, Like trying to learn the comways game of life and looking at rules, everything Just enjoying those things and of course the gaming and playing.

Speaker 1: 3:15

Yeah, totally Totally, man. What games did I actually found this industry through video games, so I'm very curious to know what games did you play growing up? What was that Were you more of?

Speaker 2: 3:27

a strategy shooter. I actually had lots of games, but I guess some kind of online games have kind of special meaning for me One where the Warcraft and one was Silk Road. It was an online game. Just you have a character, you're earning levels, buying and selling stuff similar to the no Fungible Tokens actually.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Totally, man. I see I was like a shooter guy. I liked the. I was like a Call of Duty Halo.

Speaker 2: 4:05

The First War.

Speaker 1: 4:07

You know, that was my best.

Speaker 2: 4:11

And also you were looking for those hacks for the games, just trying to make them.

Speaker 1: 4:19

Yeah, totally, dude. I mean I remember Because that's how I started off in the beginning I looked for all the soft mods, like in Halo, where you could shoot sniper bullets out of your battle rifle and it would shoot it like a turret. All the spawn mods, the jumping, the stand buying, zonalar, all that stuff. That was like my roots in the online play, so I can definitely. Yeah, I'll be honest with you on that one. But yeah, dude, so it's cool to hear some of that background. Obviously, gaming's a big deal. When it came to studying architecture, did you finish your degree? Did you kind of leave early? Yeah, we'd love to know a little bit more about kind of those early days.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Yeah, so I finished. Actually, it was four years of studying, but I finished in six years. The reason is I didn't fail, but I was always looking for some other things. So I studied in Istanbul. I was just alone and I was also working, trying to earn some money. Yeah, I was always interested in different things. I was doing unconventional ideas for the architecture project. Actually, in my graduation project it sparked my first actually non-fajr-token project, which is CryptoCubes. So I wanted to study architecture, but not the aspect of designing a building, just organizing things and trying to learn about the organization.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Gotcha, gotcha and did you, you know so, from the transition from architecture to making like CryptoCubes, did you just go straight from school to making art, or was it? Did you kind of have? Did you get to design anything, I guess with your architecture degree, like any sort of building, any sort of? Yeah?

Speaker 2: 6:37

There was like design competitions and for I attended and Venice Biennale with one of my video piece, and then there was competitions with design. I won several awards there and I won the travel brand, so it was always like different parts of the architecture. There was the designing stuff designing like furniture, designing a building in a competition and attending some kind of workshops.

Speaker 1: 7:09

It was fun actually Hell yeah, that sounds like a lot of fun. So I mean, and then you found, and then obviously you found this space, you know. So I would love to kind of maybe know how, like how did you find it? You know when and how did you find it? And little. I'm just obsessed with like I don't know. My story was fascinating and so I love to hear other people's as well.

Speaker 2: 7:34

Yeah, actually I also have quite unique story as well. I am one of the lucky people who, like, whose life changed with those technology actually. So back then in 2018, actually I went homeless. Oh, wow, it was like trying to gather everything, working, like sleeping in university and like working. After that, like pandemic happened and I had to back, go back to my hometown. I was in Istanbul, but my hometown is in the northeast of Turkey, so it's a different place.

Speaker 2: 8:19

You know, I've been always interested in those digital world, or you know, we talk about gaming, everything, and I was trying to find a platform to sell my illustrations and like those assets. You know, like you are creating a 3D model, you're creating an illustration and like some kind of templates. I was trying to look for those kind of platforms but it was painful. You know, trying to connect your bank account, like giving your credentials, everything, like it was really painful. Like even creating the work takes much more, less time. So, yeah, after that researching, I found out about NFTs. I said, yeah, I was already interested in crypto and I was like, okay and yeah. Then, as I told you, my first project actually the initial script started in my graduation project. I started to modify the script of my first project and then created crypto cubes.

Speaker 1: 9:35

So that's rude, dude. I mean it's cool to hear kind of like the 180 of the story of like going from like homeless to like finding this technology that has the ability to change your life. I mean it's incredibly special and thanks for sharing that. I'm you know. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that, because it's probably not easy to share at times.

Speaker 2: 9:55

You know, it's probably an interesting spot Actually yeah, actually I'm pretty open about it. Like I did crazy stuff when I was student in the university. Yeah, I traveled Europe for a year by playing trumpet and everything. I went homeless. It was tough times but I was always like in a good mode actually.

Speaker 1: 10:17

like I don't see those times as something on the painful times, because I was young, yeah, yeah, man I mean, and you know I've been sober for 10 years, you know as a celebrity, so I've definitely sometimes I it's always interesting to hear people have kind of had drastic kind of life experiences like that. You typically see an entirely different perspective. Yes, you know, it's easier to see the good and everything when you've kind of like seen a pretty the opposite side of that yeah definitely, you know, did any of that kind of like?

Speaker 1: 10:55

I know you mentioned like it wasn't like the worst, but you kind of had a good attitude through it all. Did that come from any of your family? Did you like have any sort of like role models growing up? That kind of like helped you through that? Just kind of maybe curious about like where some of that came from, because usually when you have that it's a pretty tough event.

Speaker 2: 11:22

Yeah, you know, actually I read a book back then. So in my own time I was feeling stuck everything. Yeah, it is typical, right? So everyone knows the Alchemist book. So a friend recommended me to read it and after I read it it was like the inspiration and like, okay, this is the place right now I am at and I need to figure it out. I need to do my best. So everything actually started mentally there and since I was always like self-taught, like I had the computer and internet, so I had everything actually.

Speaker 1: 12:11

Yeah, it seems like I had everything, yeah you know, there's often times I think going through life it's like we often don't always, don't always have what we want, but like we always have what we need. It's, you know, when we can kind of take away the some of the, some of the pop or some of the you know wishing for certain things. It's like we really have. Like, when I look back at my life, at least, even during the times where I struggled, my needs were always taken care of, you know right, but that's a great book and Alchemist is one of my favorites, and that was, you know, when I first read like life conspires to help you when you want it. Essentially, that was incredibly inspiring to me as well.

Speaker 2: 12:59

It's definitely like, definitely supports it completely changed my mental model actually, after I read it. So like once in a while, when I feel lost, I read it again. Of course there are other books, but I read it again just to see where am I at? Sure.

Speaker 1: 13:18

Yeah, absolutely man. I mean, you mentioned you read other books. Do you mainly read books like that? Are there any? What other type of books interest you?

Speaker 2: 13:26

Mostly like, mostly informative books. I don't read too many story books actually, but I really like that. You know Lao Tzu again like similar to Alchemist and I've been recently. I kept laying it, I've been the creative act. I don't remember, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1: 13:56

Yeah, Rick Rubin, yeah.

Speaker 2: 14:00

So I just started that, but mostly I'm reading the books that are that I can learn something.

Speaker 1: 14:08

Totally, totally Love that man. I've recently just started getting back into reading. I was once video games. Once I found out video games as a kid, I kind of just stopped reading. You know it was, I could not spend my time doing that, but it's actually what I learned lately.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Like people are listening to audiobooks. I'm not sure if it is the same, that like same effect, but I need to try.

Speaker 1: 14:34

I think you should, because audiobooks are actually what got me back into reading, I should say so. The last two books I read this year were the, you know, the movie the Book Dune by Frank Herbert, and then also the book called American Prometheus, and it was the story about Robert Oppenheimer, and so that was like the. Those are the, because they were. They were books that I wanted to read, but they're really long and they're very dry reads, kind of like it's. There's just very information, it's very information heavy. And I was like, well, if I'm going to read these, let me just see if I'll listen to them. And I really enjoyed it, like I. You know, sometimes they put a lot of like extra care and attention into the audiobooks to make them captivating, to make them a little bit, you know, to make it feel a little bit.

Speaker 2: 15:28

It's also important. But it's also important, the voice of the reader, right Like that.

Speaker 1: 15:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 15:33

Oh, everything you need to find the good one.

Speaker 1: 15:36

Yeah, totally. And with Dune being so popular, you know the movie just taking off and they're you know they're making the I think, a trilogy out of it. It's like they, I think they like paid a lot of money to find the right voice actors, you know, to add some of the special sound effects you know during, during some of the key moments, and it was really cool. So I recommend it, man, especially maybe with especially if it's like a book or a genre that you maybe like wouldn't pick up a book to read, but you're kind of interested in it. I think audiobooks are good for that because you can passively like listen to it and it's yeah there's less friction.

Speaker 2: 16:16

That makes sense.

Speaker 1: 16:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah, let's cool it, man. But yeah, now I'm, now I'm like back into reading, I like audiobooks, I'm starting to pick up physical books as well, so very, yeah, very excited about that. But let's, let's, let's talk code man. Let's talk about crypto cubes. You know something that I saw and I'm and so just forgave a little bit of my ignorance, but I'm still fairly new to your work, and so some of the questions that are going to be more exploratory for me is that crypto cubes. When I look at your site, I see the original cube and I see a different version of it that maybe the person that owned it created. So I would love to yeah, would love to maybe know like what that is.

Speaker 2: 17:00

You know, and the concept behind crypto cubes, yeah, yeah, so actually crypto cubes is a collection of 256 objects based on cubes. So they're all algorithmically generated objects based on cubes and actually this is like, which is focusing on the 3D virtual lens, you know, like AR and some other sandbox, the San Francisco's virtual lens. So this is the original collection actually, but the artverse you're seeing, there is another project of crypto cubes called crypto cubes creators, and the idea of crypto cubes creators is pairing each crypto cube with an artist and that artist uses that 3D file or the crypto cube and creates an artwork with their own style. So, let's say, dk picked crypto cube 17. And it's also like the artist's choice that there's no like preselected cubes, and then they are creating their own artwork with their tools, with their style and how they approach it, virtually, and we are auctioning them in an event. Actually, this is more like creating a more concrete history behind crypto cubes with all of the artists. We already collaborated with over 110 artists and it still goes on.

Speaker 1: 18:38

Wow, that's okay. So, when it comes to, I guess maybe this is really cool. So, when it comes to the crypto cubes themselves, are those like, oh, wow, like when it comes to the data on chain, like, is the one that the artist? Does the artist own the original cube that they created? No, no, no.

Speaker 2: 19:03

Okay. So it is conceptually connected. You know, our collectors are trying to get, let's say, is actually a collector owns the crypto cube 17. And then there's an artist creates an art piece with that crypto cube 17. So the collectors are trying to get those pairings just for the concept, for the more provenance of it.

Speaker 1: 19:28

Gotcha Gotcha. And how do they go about selecting that? Do they just go collect it or do they, you know, are they tied to like once the collector maybe has both for the provenance? Are they tied together in any way on chain, or are they two technically separate? Yeah, technically two separate collections. Yeah, gotcha Gotcha. And where did you think of like? What's the fascination with cubes? Like? What made you want to like? What made you want to do this?

Speaker 2: 19:56

The collection. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. As I told you, it was the first idea came out from creating 3D spaces, automated 3D spaces, in my graduation project, and then I started to use it as a collection because when I was looking for the NFTs, it was mostly 2D representations and people were just running around the centerland everywhere but everyone was looking at like those 2D things and the whole idea sparked from there.

Speaker 1: 20:29

Gotcha, gotcha. Okay, so I guess the kind of more of the long tail of, you know, of crypto cubes. Do you see these like becoming their own kind of metaverse land where people can run around in? Are they, you know? Is that kind of like the? Or is this just kind of like a purely standalone project, completely on its own?

Speaker 2: 20:51

I consider crypto cubes project, like the collection, as like a fixed thing, you know, as a 3D artifact. Gotcha, of course I'm working on like developments right, and like technical developments. You can already go into the playground of the crypto cubes, create your own animation, export that animated file and use it on 3D platforms. You can also see it in there. But I want them to be more developed, much more useful. You know, I want people to consider them as like an artifact and maybe someone can use it as a building, maybe someone can use it in there like a decorative aesthetic, as statue in their AR. So it all depends on that.

Speaker 1: 21:40

Gotcha. Okay, no, this is cool. No, this is cool. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah, because I look at this and I'm like, okay, you know what's the, what's the next step or what's the vision, what's the? You know like what, what are people supposed to do with these and what's the intent, and so it's it's cool to. It's cool to hear that you know you have the interest in AR and and like I feel like AR personally is way cooler than VR, I think that yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:06

You know, the world is still really beautiful and, like humans still have like a lot. You know, like it's just, I just don't like the idea of being just siloed in a in a house.

Speaker 2: 22:16

I agree with you. Actually, you know, the AR is more real life connected. Yeah, I guess, like more like daily, that the apps that we daily use is mostly, will Make make sense more in air, right? But let's, let's, let's think about the movie, right? Yeah, I think I Would be in VR because, like, it's completely a different world. But I completely agree with you in those like the air side.

Speaker 1: 22:46

Yeah, I literally was having that thought, you know, I think when I when I saw the advertisement for the Apple Vision Pro, I think the the thing that most excited me about that product was when they showed the cinema mode, it was like, oh, that's really cool, you know, like being able to watch a movie in a, in a custom 3d environment where you're completely immersed and you know it's like they. I think the example they showed was like Star Wars, you know, because, like, obviously you know, disney owned Star Wars. They did this like the whole Mandalorian, just the ship. You're like sitting in this, like it's, it's like if you're going to the theme park, you know, except you're in your house.

Speaker 2: 23:24

And you're watching a movie.

Speaker 1: 23:27

I think digital environments, I think, are incredibly fascinating and I think that this kind of Technology is one thing to help us get there. But I think, to your, you know, going back to our original point, like AR just feels more practical, like it feels like the technology to build or like the to build technology around, ar is a lot more practical, it's a lot more immersed. You know, it feels the most like what we currently have, or maybe we have all these experiences, but we're not just looking down on our phone. We can maybe be more present with people you know what I mean where, like whether it's glasses or whether it's, you know, certain meetings. Like it's, ar just feels like I Don't know. It feels more of a shared experience, where VR feels more isolated.

Speaker 2: 24:12

And I think there's a bad, you know yeah and yeah. Same thing. We are like when we need those isolated thing, then we are going to use they. We are yeah and yeah, but mostly are yeah, mostly are like I.

Speaker 1: 24:26

There was some artworks that I saw at. I went to a physical art fair here in Texas and there was a lady that I don't know how she did it, but basically with some of the still photographs that she had or the still paintings that she had, she basically built the animations and she actually animated the pieces and then you held up your phone and your phone scanned the painting and the animated version Came out and I thought that was really really cool, you know.

Speaker 2: 24:54

Yeah, so that's an outer layer.

Speaker 1: 24:57

Yeah yeah, totally. So something that I think really captivated me about Looking at your, looking at your website was the, the new one of what are the one of ones that you've that you've recently been doing, where the, the, the the token, is the marketplace, it is the art it had and it has, you know it's. It's so that to me, conceptually, was like wait, like I Didn't really understand it first but would love to, yeah, we'd love to just like dive into that a little bit. Yeah, you know, on the, on the one of ones, can you like break down kind of where you thought about this and like what your vision for this is?

Speaker 2: 25:37

hmm, so all of the inspiration came to me with time. You know, we, we all, we all know crypto punks. They have their own marketplace. It's basically a collection, right, but everything happens in a smart contract, yeah, and and Then we had, we had art blocks, right, they had created the standard to for the generate bar, like how to put the script inside the contracts and how to Automate though the randomizing everything.

Speaker 2: 26:12

So basically, this project, inspired like those two projects are inspired me to do, to create this, my new project, and and so they're like three aspects of it, I guess like the first one is the visual part. In my own 101 art pieces I'm creating very highly optimized real-time shaders and, as you can see in the website, it is much more Advanced compare to the other on chain graphics, because the other one, chain graphics, are mostly based on to the svg's right, like those layers, but if you look at the pieces you will see it is you can interact with them there like three different presentation. So each Script, all the art pieces, individually crafted, so it doesn't output many quantities, it only outputs one. I think that makes the art pieces special to me. And the second part is you know that marketplace idea. You know, the marketplace idea haven't hasn't been changed for like decades, right, like many years and centuries. Basically, we have a place, the marketplace. We have to buy or sell. They're coming together and like they're facilitating those transactions. But I think in the future, in the visible future, every digital asset can have their own internal thing. So basically, if I want to, if I like something, I want to buy a digital asset, right, I can just connect to the itself. I shouldn't look for some kind of a marketplace that sells it. So, basically, this whole idea was basically you're connecting to my art piece itself by to buy, sell or be done, so you don't need any marketplace anywhere.

Speaker 2: 28:15

And the third part is the royalties and that the new standard this is like the other NFTs doesn't have, like this book, with the functions for those buying, a selling. You know marks, places are having the word on like to make it less a. They made the royalties optional, right, so they can basically control the things. So I'm actually doesn't sell 100%, but I is a different approach that I think we should be explored. The market functions are inside the art piece so you will be sure it will be paid, but they're like the like technical details that it can be avoided again, but we are also working on it. And the last thing, since it's like a new standard, it doesn't use any ERC and non-finageable token standard. Basically, each one on one art piece is a smart contract which allows me to add new features. Explore what can I do?

Speaker 1: 29:23

Okay, see, that was to me that that last part was really where I wasn't quite clear on. That's really cool. Instead of it being an ERC, it's a. You know, and I read that. I think I've read that so many different times but, like, until you said it really didn't click To me that you know the difference between the two. I think it's incredibly fascinating, man, like I think you know, when I was my, I think anything that kind of like Makes me challenge. What I currently know is is really captivating and fascinating, and I think Something I thought about when you were sharing this is okay.

Speaker 1: 30:04

Like. You're incredibly. Like you know, like you built this new way of looking at the world. You know, when it comes to. You know when it comes to all of the art that we enjoy. You know, when it comes to all of the art, whether it's on chain or it's pointing to a decentralized server, like on our weave or IPFS, do you see? You know, without a huge level of technical background, how does an artist do something like this, like, how do it like? Basically, do we need more places?

Speaker 2: 30:35

I also should mention I'm working on documentation about how one can create their own art piece with it on chain or off chain, and then I'm going to open to open source to the creators. That allows them to use and Basically, it is independent from anywhere else. Right, so you don't need to go to the market places or anywhere else. It requires an API because you need to get the market data to put in your website or, if you don't want, there's there's an ether scan or some other solutions that basically go to the art pieces contract and connect your wallet to from the ether scan.

Speaker 1: 31:19

Hmm, okay, gotcha, that that makes a lot more sense. And I because I it's really cool, because I know there's projects like you know, prohibition on they use our blocks engine on on arbitram, where and I'll weave this back into our conversation but yeah, but like they're encouraging like a lot of traditional artists to understand what it would be like to be paired with a creative coder you know to make, make, to convert, kind of you know, whether you're a 3d artist or an illustrator, like what would it, what would it look like to make a generative art piece, you know, and make it on chain or like to have, yeah. So, reason why I say that that was kind of my first intro, number one, my first intro to really being able to excessively explore generative art and the ideas of it. But I say that because it sounds like there's a push for Like it feels like there's a boundary that can be pushed here when it comes to bring art that's not traditionally on chain or bringing more ideas to you know, infusing them with code, than there was before, when it comes like our work of the future, you know, it just kind of feels like there's a natural push and it feels like this is kind of a logical first step Into doing that, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 32:40

And I think that you know because, because right now we have tools, like you know, manifold. We have tools, like you know, I know, super rare and you know, not super transient is also another smart contract, you know, development tool. But the way, the way I view, you know, and I can't remember where I first heard this, but I was chatting with our creative director and there was this vision to kind of have everything on their website versus a marketplace. So I think there there is like a While marketplace is going.

Speaker 2: 33:11

This is like every artist will have their own customized, like they own websites. Right, it started with manifold Like. Now they have their own custom contracts, which they are more control over it, and I think in some way in the future you're each artist going to have their own marketplaces in their own website. I think that too Similar to crypto punks. You know, everything started with crypto punks. Basically, you go to the liberal apps website and you connect your wallet to your punks. There's nowhere else, like of course there are. There are ways to wrap it and trade them on, like other places, but it doesn't even need. It is independent from everywhere.

Speaker 1: 33:57

You know, see, I was listening to a terror, you know, a one, one, three space, and it was over the weekend, you know, and that was really like because, like you know, obviously I know punks, I know, you know, like, I think there's a lot of, there's so much rich history, rich history behind that. But until he started really talking about the, there was a discussion around the innovation of crypto punks or like, what makes them so special was the marketplace it had. Like the tokens are cool, like in the punks are cool in the community, but it was the marketplace that, of course.

Speaker 2: 34:29

Yeah, I would agree and like making this, you know, immutable pieces actually like though the. The users are, yes, they are nice, but they're also running through them from SHA algorithm and then they're having the hash like everything is like a the code, the structure, market places and art.

Speaker 1: 34:54

Got it. Yeah, that, exactly that. Like that didn't really click until like over the weekend. You know where it was like, oh, that, that makes sense. You know it's, it's there, it's their own thing and it it's really. It's really interesting to like look at this where it's like you know we've we're coming out of a web to like you know, we're coming out of a web to world into a web three world and we have these. You know, I think I think it worked for a while, like obviously Twitter is great to have, was great to have, is a centralized you know at for a while because you know, like it connected me to so many people and it gave me the ability to do what I want to do.

Speaker 2: 35:28

Most of the people who are interested in crypto are in Twitter. Mostly there's like forecast or other places, but yeah, most of the day yeah, yeah, so it's.

Speaker 1: 35:40

You can't I can't completely not centralization and in certain aspects, because there is a, there is a benefit, there's a value to it, but I feel like it's kind of a. You know, it's real easy to kind of like look at the previous generations and kind of like shit on it where it's like, but actually Actually I just want to make a comment on this.

Speaker 2: 35:57

Like, yeah, we need a decentralization when it's when it is necessary. You know, there are some places when we don't. We need sense centralization in some aspect of life. So some people are looking at it like I don't, like we with them, like it is not good to be become like the center, like maximum is the decentralization. So I also believe in that, like the important aspects should be decentralized, but I am not saying that everything should be Totally, I think.

Speaker 1: 36:33

I think maximalism of any sort is a dangerous game to play. You know, like it's if you're dealing in absolutes. You know like this or that, or you know, or it's, it's just not. It's not a healthy way to look at it because you know, I look at, I've always looked at crypto as an option. I've looked at digital. You know I've looked at tokenization of everything as an option, as an alternate path. I think you know it's. It's real easy to like Look into all the chain maximalism and you know which one's going to win and which one's better and where should we do all these things. But it's like there's In which there's only two blockchains that that the rest of the world uses. If we truly believe that like this is an inevitable technology, the future is the future is multi chain, right.

Speaker 2: 37:21

I actually you know we have this new technology, right. That permission is pure, pure one, yeah, but we still we are going with the same idea, like the same ideas, like why, why, why, why do we need a big marketplace for everything now? Like we need everything just for inside of themselves? And when you like something, you just go in there and you know the one interesting part that comes from this conversation around every artist should have their. You know, like, every artist will have their own marketplace. I really, like I want to linger on that a little bit.

Speaker 1: 38:04

So, when it comes to you know the, because the one thing that marketplaces do very well is or they don't. I'm not going to say they do very well, but they do well, they solve it. They solve a problem of discoverability in curation. Yeah, yeah, I agree with this as well. Yeah, I Totally agree with this as well.

Speaker 2: 38:31

But here's the thing I also experienced being in the platform just now, so they are helping. I also experienced being in the platform just now, so they are helping, I would say, 50%. They are helping 50% of the artists and they are like they're really supporting their career. The artists are having really positive feedbacks, they're becoming more successful, but then there's the other 50% that can't be seen. You know, it happens right Like there's a but of course it is some kind of like you need to show yourself as a creator or an artist, you need to improve yourself, but there's also some aspect of it that maybe someone, some creator, doesn't want to be in a platform.

Speaker 2: 39:25

So I'm not saying, by the way, like everyone should use it again, but we also need that kind of thing, because this is what I experienced. I tried to work with platforms in the past and there was only a few of them was a good experience for me. The rest of them was they didn't even care. You know, like you can, everyone can understand this kind of problems and as an individual, I decided to just create my own platform and yeah, now I don't need them.

Speaker 1: 40:03

I like that, so it's a. So I guess the you know to clarify or to as we go along in this topic, the conversation isn't and I'm noticing my own contradiction like in dealing in absolutes. It's like it's not like this or that, it's not like marketplaces or no marketplaces. It's more of an in addition to and not in replacement of. You know.

Speaker 2: 40:28

Yeah, we need to have the options, like, we need to have those. We need to see what we can do at first and then we can decide.

Speaker 1: 40:36

But yeah, yeah, yeah, it's an interesting topic, man, because it's easy to yeah, it's easy to kind of fall into one or the other. But again, going back to my original statement, like crypto has always for me, you know, represented an additional, it's another option to the current financial system, you know, and so it makes sense. It only makes sense that within the ecosystem we have different options.

Speaker 2: 41:01

And there's also like misunderstanding in there right, people are arguing about like you know we have a recent news everything. Some of them doesn't like the centralized finance world. Some of them are saying it is necessary. So it's always like that balance. You know, we can't live without each other.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Actually, there's an inevitability to it, right. It's kind of like you know you don't really get anywhere by just agreeing with each other, like if there was only one school of thought. You know it doesn't. That's not how we advance. It usually comes from two people, two very strong opposing beliefs, constantly clashing.

Speaker 2: 41:50

And also. But it is like that when you look at the logic, it is totally clear to see like it is going to be automated. Right, it is going to be using blockchain, like those systems. So it is clear in a logical sense.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Totally, totally. I couldn't agree more, man, where do you see? So I'd love to maybe it's not necessarily a pivot, but kind of sort of is when it comes to everything being automated on blockchain. So, when it comes to, I would love to kind of dive in a little bit into AI, you know, do you? When it comes to what you know and this is a very broad, open-ended invitation here whether it's involved with your work, whether it's just as a whole, in general, where you see it going, I would love to kind of know how you have I'm curious to know if you, number one incorporated AI into your practice and, if so, and also how you kind of view it.

Speaker 1: 42:48

There's a lot of important things that need to be discussed, like you know, when it comes to the creative process of AI, or when it comes to how things are made. When it comes to, you know, what do people value? How do people value it. You know there's a lot of different, I think, discussions to have. Well, as a creator, I would love to kind of know, like, how you've used that in your practice so far. Maybe we can just start there.

Speaker 2: 43:14

Yeah, the first thing I want to say is like I am very fascinated about like the. I read some things and I was very fascinated about the connection of AI and blockchain actually. So it was like AI is the, you know, taking all the data, processing everything right, like it's like a book, like it's like the brain, right, yeah, and it's like the brain is the executing part, like the transparent executing part. So I mostly think them all together recently after all of these readings. And the second thing, what I was doing recently this is like not related to the first things that I said I'm kind of creating my own GPD, you know, just feeding everything, like who am I, what I'm doing, what kind of details or data do my projects have? Like everything that you can think of you know, like I say I am talking with someone.

Speaker 2: 44:30

Someone asked me what is cryptocubes. I explain it. And then there's okay, how does cryptocube 23 looks Like? What are the exclusive locations of each cube in the cryptocube 23? Like that, the HAN GPT is going to know everything. Even it will provide the assets, the images, sounds. It will basically behave like me. It is like a second me, right, better me, actually better than, because, yeah, I think this is actually where it is going as well. Right, we all are currently using daily tools, ai tools just to make it much more faster. Yeah, it is really broad. Like people are talking about AGI and then I'm completely lost there. Like I don't know right now, like what will happen. But yeah, these are my thoughts. Actually, I don't like AI single. I like AI with the blockchain.

Speaker 1: 45:37

I would agree, like I think for me there was an idea that I heard and first I'm going to talk about the GPT in just a second but I think that I feel like in a world where AI is going to become like, I view it like, if you're not you know the way I've talked to my parents about it is that like if you're not exploring chat, gpt or any AI, a similar AI, you know, large language model, this is the equivalent of like not learning how to use Google when Google first came out.

Speaker 1: 46:09

It's kind of like to me it feels like if you don't know how to use it right now, if you're not at least exploring even some really basic ways for it to help you. You know, I feel like it's going to become the norm and people who are refusing it or people who are like, resistant to it, it's like the genie's out of the bottle, you know, and you can't like. You can't have like only certain parts of AI, not have other. It's Pandora's out of the box, you know, type of thing, but the current I'm not sure where I was going with that, but it was more of a personal view on, I guess, AI and AGI, just completely. You know, I don't think I'm smart enough to even really commentate on that of like what that actually means. You know.

Speaker 2: 46:58

It's not about this. Actually, you know just we kind of we have the AI like it is smarter than everyone, yeah yeah, yeah, but I think, oh, where I was going with that is the AI and blockchain.

Speaker 1: 47:14

Is that like? I look at a world where it's so easy to impersonate people, like right now it's getting easier and easier to like impersonate people.

Speaker 2: 47:21

You know and like one of the solutions with blockchain.

Speaker 1: 47:24

Yeah, this is one of the solutions like blockchain has an actual use for this because, say, you know a world leader tweets something, or there's a video of a world leader saying something that could cause you know civil unrest or a cause you know, violence? Like what if you could cryptographically prove that that came from that person or not?

Speaker 2: 47:47

Like what if you know this is already being done? You know, like you are there signing the message, everything, yeah, so this is where it's going. Actually, I agree, and there will be many aspects of it, but I think, like blockchain, like the cryptocurrency, is going to put money off those automated things.

Speaker 1: 48:12

And what money of those money of the odd? What do you mean by that?

Speaker 2: 48:17

Basically the currency of the AI. Actually, people are talking about it because it will need that. We can go into too much detail right now. I'm just trying to make it like brief as possible, right, but yeah, I can totally see that like that in the in an automated world, yeah, the, the wealth, will be actually a shift to the automation. Instead of that, like the currency, the value, but so the currency will be the automation.

Speaker 1: 48:55

I'm going to do that for a little while. We can, we can, we can keep the conversation going, but I I'll probably need to think on that one, for, for a little bit, appreciate you kind of pretzeling my mind a little bit during the conversation. No, that's cool, man. This is all like incredibly fascinating. And one thing, one other thing I wanted to I don't even want to talk about is you know you recently, crypto cubes are now in the LACMA permanent collection. Would love to, would, and I've been having this conversation with a few different people, just in different areas, whether it's artists or curators, you know, when it comes to the, you know when it comes to historical institutions like museums, you know, and galleries and just the traditional art world. Do you see, when it comes to, like, what we're building here? Do you see the two worlds kind of still operating separately, or do you see a world in which we all come together?

Speaker 2: 49:59

Yeah, we all come together so like no one decides. No one decides what is art Like, when there's a huge inspiration, when there's a huge moment you should accept as an history right. So for those museums entering the digital assets scene, that shows this like there's a moment and it will happen more as long as we create new things, as long as people are interested. So, yeah, like you know, mama did collaborations right, and then we have LACMA, then there's like blue center, like we wish there is like some pre Crypto punk autograph. I think it's amazing actually, like just being witnessing this, like the first acquisitions of the digital assets I don't know it's. It feels special.

Speaker 1: 51:02

It does. It's also kind of weird. There's part, you know, like I feel like as a whole we're moving. We're kind of like a part, like you know, you always like to read about shifts and culture or like shifts in history, so like when some big moments are happening, like I think we're living through a lot of like. We're living through a moment right as a society, and sometimes it's you know, sometimes it's you know, like whether it's COVID, the pandemic. There's some painful elements to it, but there's also some really like cool elements. Like we are literally witnessing digital art and the ownership of that being accepted and people are getting excited about it. And we're seeing some of these. You know, we're seeing some of the merge of these two kind of what used to be separate cultures, in my opinion, or like what used to be very separate or, I guess, operated separately, coming to one.

Speaker 2: 51:57

Actually I'm not sure about this Like sort of like the galleries and those institutions was already focused on like digital works. But the normal tangible talking standard just helped verifying those digital assets and, as we know, like when there's a huge boom right, like currently, it is like a dot com thing, so then unnecessary things happen this well, so it is important that they are being careful about those kind of things. So I think it's like everything is together. That means if we do our job, if us creators are doing being transparent, trying to like move forward, they're going to be interested. I can totally understand their side, yeah totally yeah, totally.

Speaker 1: 52:58

Well, it's very, you know. You know, to a lot of people it's very different and you built up. It's kind of interesting when you build up success or build up a career and then something new comes along. It's like then, all of a sudden, you know, you're kind of forced I don't necessarily like use the word, like I don't know if I like the word forced, but like you're kind of like, okay, maybe there's a new way of thinking that could be a little bit better. And just because it's not my way doesn't mean it's wrong. Yeah, always yeah. So I really, yeah, I really like that.

Speaker 1: 53:27

And kind of speaking on, kind of on that same beat of like, as long as you know, as long as artists do their job, you know, what are some of this, what are some of the things that I guess on both sides this isn't just specifically on the art side, specifically artists, but artists, collectors, builders what do you think's missing right now? I guess, in one, three, as far as like being an artist participating in the industry for a couple of years, you know, and having the success you've had, like what is it? What do you think's missing right now? Is there anything?

Speaker 2: 53:58

I think I already answered this Like we have all the new permissionless technology, but we are still thinking with our old ideologies. So, like it offers it offers us so many aspects, in my opinion, that needs to be explored. So what is missing is that those creative minds I like, and also the second thing maybe like we need to be careful about our attitudes, behaviors, for, like, we are saying outside world like the other, no, like we need to be careful about this, like it is, like it's a moment and we need to be welcoming. We need to be more mature, we need to be more honest about those things.

Speaker 1: 54:48

So I guess the nature of like gatekeeping or like not being as welcoming. Is that kind of what?

Speaker 2: 54:58

I think I don't want to comment on this. Okay, it always happens everywhere, yeah, like in every aspect. So, as you can understand, you know, in the technical sites, like, there's always a balance that needs to be maintained Totally.

Speaker 1: 55:16

Totally. I respect that for sure, for sure. So I guess let's do one final pivot here. Would love to kind of know you know what's on the horizon like from what you can share. You know what is kind of on the horizon for you coming up in 2024?

Speaker 2: 55:34

Yeah, I'm going to be focusing on mostly in my artistic works. I'm trying to create my own language, like my own world, firstly, and in an infrastructure also the site and also the concept, the sites as well. The second thing is getting ready to infrastructure for others to use for sourcing them. And the third thing is that keep learning about what happens in the blockchain ecosystem, because every day, something new happens, and what I realized was I was, I felt like I was missing. You know, there are like lots of blockchains to learn, and then I just recently heard about modular blockchain. What is it? How does it work? Yeah, so yeah, like just trying to keep up.

Speaker 1: 56:25

It's hard, dude, I mean it's. I saw a funny tweet the other day was like when people ask, how do you understand crypto or how do you, like you know, how should I learn about this? It's like, well, it's simple, just spend 17 hours a day on Twitter, that's it, and it's kind of the truth, you know, yeah, so well, dude, this is that sounds incredibly exciting, man, and I can't be more eager to see kind of how you like lay these tools out and open source it and really what artists will be able to do with this. I think that's incredibly exciting and what you've built is really yeah, yeah, I also want to thank, like you know, our techs code.

Speaker 2: 57:08

We are collaborating with Sophie and Tony in this, my art 101 art piece project, and then there's demo, really more silly out, which are my, like, my team that are helping me a lot in terms of like technical parts, yeah, like hopefully, in each step we are going to iterate to make it better.

Speaker 1: 57:33

Totally, man, I couldn't think of a better group of people like to have on your side here, like it's especially after getting to chat with Sophia, like that, she's phenomenal. What they're doing at ArtX code is yeah, it's incredibly. It's really cool to see someone who has such an intuitive understanding of you know just generative art, markets, people and how to you know how to help realize goals. It's such a huge, such a huge thing, and I think it's the space needs a lot more people. I agree, I agree. Well, cool man Han. I just want to thank you. We're coming up on the hour, man. I just want to thank you for your time. Thank you, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: 58:17

Thank you for listening to the Shiller Curated Podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. As we close that today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the Curated Podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly Twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, at Shiller XYZ. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remember if you're looking for it. Art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time, this is Boone signing off.