SHILLR
CURAT3D: A series of conversations with the people shaping the culture and technology of the new internet.
This series is produced by SHILLR -- the most trusted marketing, media & consulting firm in crypto.
SHILLR
CURAT3D: Eli Scheinman - Weaving Technology with Art, the Craft of Storytelling, and Curation
This week, we had the pleasure of sitting down with Eli Scheinman, Head of Art at Proof, where we discussed the delicate dance of storytelling in the art world and its impact on the era of digital art collecting . Storytelling is more than just a buzzword; it's a craft that injects life into artwork, creating a bond between creator and collector, and Eli does it with a combination of integrity and strategy, adding necessary dimensions to powerful stories.
Navigating the crypto art scene can be akin to charting unknown waters, where the currents of market speculation and the depths of an art's narrative must be balanced. We peel back the layers of this journey, examining the challenge of safeguarding an artwork's essence amidst shifting market dynamics, and highlight the lack of useful tools to tell multi-dimensional stories.
Eli's path to curation is incredible, starting with a foundation in contemporary history and political ecology to a chance encounter with Kevin Rose and starting multiple companies together. This experience carved out the niche for Proof Collective and initiatives like Grails. We bring the conversation home by underscoring the importance of quality and intent in our endeavors, spotlighting the nuanced and purposeful approaches that define our work in marrying technology with art, fostering human connections in the dynamic Web3 space.
Eli links:
X (Twitter): https://x.com/eli_schein
Proof:
Website: https://www.proof.xyz/
X (Twitter): https://x.com/proof_xyz
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
GM, this is Boone and you're listening to the Schiller Curated Podcast. In this week's episode, we sat down with Eli Scheinman, head of art at Proof. We discussed many important topics, such as the dimensions and challenges of authentic storytelling, physical prints as an onboarding mechanism for traditional art collectors, the importance of understanding an artist's creative process and much, much more. As always, this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be relied upon for financial advice. Boone and guest may own NFTs discussed. Now grab some coffee and let's dive into this conversation with Eli. All right, we are live in, eli. Gm. Sir, how are you?
Speaker 2:GM, gm, I'm doing well, man. I'm excited to chat and it was so nice to see you in Miami in person for the first time. Excited to dig in. This should be a lot of fun, dude.
Speaker 1:I mean, we actually had the pleasure of hanging out multiple times, whether it was in the car, whether it was at the Proof house, whether it was at the Schiller house. We started off right away. I mean it was really great to land in Miami and then go hang out with you guys. That was my first event. It was a lot of fun, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great. You guys had this wonderful setup. Without saying too much. You had these two houses that were adjacent to each other and always good vibes every time we went over there. Best vibes at the Schiller house.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man. I mean we really try and it's cool to hear that reciprocated when people pick up what we're trying to put down, and we're really grateful to be doing what we do. I joined Schiller in January and I still just pinch myself that this is what we get to do for a living.
Speaker 2:Just to react to that for a moment. It's amazing the quality of humans that are on your team. Yes, you obviously. I mean everyone knows that about you. You're a high-intensity good human. But I met Connor, I met Bernardo, I spent time with Fungi in person for the first time. I might be missing oh, eli, there's an Eli on your team and just all very high-intensity good humans, and so it was fun to see that in person get to spend time together.
Speaker 1:Man, thank you. I mean, that's really when I was debating, whether you know, like when we were kind of in chats about me joining, it was just like that was what I always came back to is like there was not one person that I didn't look up to in a certain way, someone that didn't operate with high integrity, someone who said no to things that they didn't vibe with. You know someone, who you know people. It just I hadn't really met a more cohesive team and every time I kept finding some you know risks or challenges. I'm like it kept the whole. Every time I poked a hole, the hole filled right back up. So it was like I couldn't find a reason to not want to join this team. Like I really, you know, I really tried just to make sure I did my due diligence, but it's been one of the best decisions I ever made.
Speaker 1:It's. These guys are just absolutely stacked and it's been quite the year, man, and I'm sure you know you can quite attest to that as well with all the Grails launches, with all the things you guys have been doing at Proof. I mean I told you earlier like I've had to mostly just watch from the sidelines for a lot of things, but getting to see, like what you guys have built, especially on the art side you guys have worked with some of my favorite artists and the way you guys do Grails and the way you guys are, the amount of intent and the amount of effort, especially on the media side, it's obviously very personal to me, you know, as I am the director of media at Schiller. So from that standpoint I don't think anyone holds a candle. So it's, I appreciate that man. Yeah, dude, it's, and I know it's not cheap, I know it's really hard, I know it's a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of work and you know, first of all, appreciate that and then, yeah, man, it is a lot of work but and a lot of the work is certainly not done by me you know, we have such an amazing in-house media team led by our director of media, mauricio, who you should definitely meet and time with. He's outstanding, he's built a great team. But what we we have internally is a really deep commitment to doing the work to to effectively tell those artist stories. That feels like, you know, there's some white space there. There's an opportunity there to really lean in and tell those stories in a way in which the artists have not had them told before, and that you know. That, I think, from a collector perspective, is valuable and important and it all feeds into this, this paradigm where you and I and all of us are trying to build. That broadens the accessibility of digital art and and the digital artists who are in the space today.
Speaker 2:But it's also, from the artist perspective, you know, I think, a fundamental reason why working with Proof and releasing work with us is of interest, because you know to be totally transparent and frank, most of the artists who release work in those grails shows that you mentioned and we did three of them last year and we've done five in total. You know they don't need us, they don't need, frankly, any platform to release work and and effectively sell it. You know these are artists who have an existing collector base and their own audiences. The reason they find what we're doing, I think, attractive and interesting is is exactly for that, that core reason around the storytelling and media side of it. That's valuable to them and so, by extension, doing a show like that it is interesting.
Speaker 2:But just to double click even further, you know, when we started doing those grail shows in in season one in particular, I would say the sort of primary experience from a collector perspective was about the guessing game and the speculation. Yeah, you know who could it be. Yeah, what does that mean in terms of you know what I might, might make in terms of being able to sell the piece that I've minted and the whole project and and experience I think was was pretty deeply rooted in that from the collector experience. And what we've tried to do over the course of the last several of those shows is to move a little further away from that being the primary focus into. This is fundamentally about storytelling and that feels much more aligned for me and I think us as a, as an organization, is that's the work we want to be doing Totally, man and I was.
Speaker 1:There was a couple of thoughts that went through my head while you were saying that in the word that kept keeps coming to mind is dimensions. You know, it's like the, because I look at, I look at a piece of art and that to me, is only one dimension of the story they're trying to tell. You know, you could argue and I still think it's a gray area, but you know there's, you could argue, the words that the artist puts, you know, on on social media or on on the Super Air Prairie Drone Foundation, as another dimension, yeah, and I think that when you look at them talking about the piece in the space as another dimension. But there's, you know, and I think you, you and I probably align on this really well is that there's some parts of the storytelling that doesn't feel like the artist's job and it feels like that's other people's jobs to tell that story from an entirely different lens in a really unique and captivating way.
Speaker 1:Because you look at the artist's role I mean, at least the way I look at it is that there's so much that goes into being an artist, and especially in the digital age, not that being an artist was ever easy.
Speaker 1:You know, the the opportunity to make a footprint here is really, as you said, there's a lot of white space to make a footprint but at the same time I think a lot of people are realizing that there's there's a lot more work to it than really meets the eye, yeah, and so so to see that was really fun and I'm really glad that you touched on kind of where where you guys rooted in the very beginning of season one and I think you know, in an interesting way.
Speaker 1:I think it's great that you guys started like that and then pivoted, but you still kind of kept a little bit of that ethos in there, because I think that still, as much as we are in it for the art and the storytelling, crypto as a whole is a financial market and like it almost kind of feels like an ode to the culture to have a little bit like a hint of that in there, kind of like what Dave Krugman did with drip drop, you know like how he created. Very similar to that there's an ode to like the speculative nature of the space, but it is inherently a larger body of work that tells a much bigger story and I think finding useful ways to implement that without making it to primary focus is incredible.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think that made sense and like so I think that's true. And then the other thing I would tease out there is in the way that that mechanic around Grail's works, going back to your point around context and those different dimensions, at the beginning of that experience, from the collector perspective, the singular, the only dimension that exists is the visual output. All you have to to build your understanding of the piece of the artwork from is the artwork itself no title, artist name, no description. And then, over the course of the process, you increasingly get those additional dimensions, ultimately leading to robust storytelling title, description, artist name and maybe some additional context from them, from themselves on Twitter's, into that effect. So I like the way you're thinking about that in terms of those, those different dimensions.
Speaker 2:You know, it's so interesting, like I had a conversation yesterday with an artist that we're working with and it was, it was specific to that point you made around what are the roles and responsibilities, so to speak, of an artist in this space and in particular, as it relates to communicating externally about their work. And you know we have a variety of different distribution opportunities that proof, we have a podcast, we have our Twitter account where we can do spaces and other things. We have our media site where we can create, create video. We have our Discord, our token-gated Discord, where we could do more intimate voice chats, and I was having this conversation with an artist yesterday about whether those any or all of those felt authentic to them as a channel for communicating about an upcoming release or not. And for them, in this specific instance, most of those did not. You know, they did not feel authentic as opportunities for them to express and communicate about their work, and I actually quite liked that, that an artist felt that way and was open to communicate that, because I think, at least in this space, most artists do the same thing, which is I have a drop coming up. That means, by extension, I am going to do a Twitter Spaces three days before the drop or a day before the drop and I'm going to bring in some people to that spaces that help signal.
Speaker 2:This is an interesting like. It's become a little bit formulaic, and so to have an artist be very candid with me and say you know, I want something that feels sort of more of the project and of me and more intimate and less marketing, I love that. And then then the challenges on me and us meaning, you know, proof to figure out, and then I'm sure this is something you guys think about is like how to tell that story, how to communicate those different dimensions that we're circling around in an authentic way and in a per project way, so that it does not feel formulaic and that it actually feels additive and an extension of the artwork and concept more than anything. I'm sure you know, at Schiller you guys have different clients and artists and projects where if it were formulaic, it wouldn't be interesting and you probably have to really be thoughtful about how you tell those stories in very different ways.
Speaker 1:You nailed it. I mean you nailed it completely, and that's really cool, that it's also really interesting to hear publicly that you know a lot of the channels that we have Don't feel native to, to the, to the telling of the story, and I'm really I appreciate you sharing that, because it I think we all Kind of know it, I think we all kind of like feel it, but it's not really something that's spoken about a lot. So I think, yeah, I'm just gonna noodle on that for a little bit, but the the point around, you know, we and a Schiller, we actually took the first step to working with an artist this past year was John Carborn, and it was with the seeker project. And you know, because historically in the past we don't, you know, we, we never worked with artists simply because of the fact that we didn't want to serve as An additional middleman that was extracting without providing enough value to justify what we were extracting. You know, because you know we all, we all got to eat. We're not, you know, like we have our own way of doing things, but and so we all have what we want to make, but we all we also don't feel good about charging too much For for what we provide.
Speaker 1:And John really came to us Kind of knowing exactly what he wanted but kind of struggling with the, the presentation of it, and so that was a great first step into it. But yeah, it was something it was. We treated him nothing like a client. You know, like it was very different. You know cuz John's not a protocol, john's an artist. You know. John's not, you know, like an art platform, john is an artist, you know.
Speaker 2:So let me just react to one other thing, which is, you know, I think, one thing we, excuse me, we wrestle with quite a bit and we're we're sort of learning as we go and and have some good data points from the last year is how much do you as a you know, I think of proof is some Some blend of platforming gallerist.
Speaker 2:So you know, how do we or production partner is sort of yeah, some version of those three things how do we effectively help sell and package a release for an artist? You know let's you know we were just talking about John how do we do that effectively in a way that Tells the story but also keeps the artwork that is at the core of the entire thing front and center? And so, for example, we did one release last year, earlier in the year, where, upon reflection, I think there was, there was sort of too much branding Around the release itself and, by extension, the artwork, which should have been the thing that everyone was was focused on, was focused on all the energy was going into, actually got lost a little bit because there were these sort of superfluous Assets and other things around it. And so, finding that right balance where you're, you're telling a story, you're building a mood, you're you're creating an ethos and communicating that ethos externally in a cogent way and in a consistent way, but always driving back to the artwork fundamentally, yeah, is is an interesting challenge.
Speaker 1:It really is, and I think it's different for each artist, you know, because an artwork tells every, every body of work tells an entirely different story, and so, like identifying what that is, how can we tell that the most authentically? On the bird app, you know, or on the ex app, or on whatever, whatever other apps or whatever whatever other distribution channels that we, that we use? It's it's fun, exciting, but, like you said, it's incredibly challenging because I imagine, the way you, the way you guys told you know summers, you know summer story recently was very different than how you guys told some of the grails drops.
Speaker 1:You know, like was very different with how you did Joey L's with was, which was very different, you know I mean. So it's yeah, I think you know what I'm get. I think the point I'm getting at is that these are like, I think they're almost some of the funnest problems to have, because I don't think I've been so exciting to tackle a challenge like this and it's like. These are really fun and the fact that I think we're both in a position to do that in a fun way is really unique. And so that kind of like lends me to one of the just very, really curious about you and your journey. Like, how do you like, how did you get involved in curation? Like, because, like, you're like, the one thing I've noticed is that, like, with every grail shop, I'm like, dude, he's so fucking on it. Like, I'm like, how did like? How did, yeah, dude. So I would love to kind of just unpack the story of like, what made you want to dive into curation so heavily?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let me give a Caveat and then answer your questions. So I always like to be sensitive about Thinking of myself as a curator because in some respects I think that does a disservice to professional, so to speak, professional curators who have a depth of understanding about art history. That that I do not, and so I like to be Transparent and open about that. I think I play some version of a contemporary curator At the moment and what that really is, and then I promise I'll answer your question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but that really means to me is that I Am a filter and I do a lot of listening and observing and I have my own sense of taste, for sure, and things, concepts, visual outputs that I that I resonate with and that I have strong personal internal conviction about. But I'm also very much a filter for other smart people, great collectors, other artists who are sharing work of other artists with me. So so, without out of the way, I have a pretty I've I took a circuitous path to the work I'm doing now. So my academic training is in Contemporary history, interesting some, some art history, some architectural history, in fact, and then, at the master's level, my focus was on political ecology, which is basically power dynamics Between in, in many cases, farmers and and government entities.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so and, of course, like there are, there's a relationship, you know, we in with political ecology and everything happening in crypto and and digital art. For sure, lots of, lots of through lines Across one level of fidelity Less so in other ways Mm-hmm. But you know, I finished my masters and, as I was, as I was doing so, kevin and I met Kevin. Rose and I met In a pretty sort of happenstance way and then, over the course of the next seven or so years, we worked together building a couple of technology products, so things that were very aligned with our, our passions, but that took a manifestation in the form of a mobile app. So we built a nutrition product and we built a meditation product, things that were both core to the way we were both living and we saw some white space and an opportunity to have some impact a positive impact, I hope, across those two, two dimensions nutrition and meditation and Digital art.
Speaker 2:Nfts are not that different.
Speaker 2:You know, it really started for both of us from a deep passion for all the incredible Creativity that was being expressed by these incredible artists in this space, and we were both obsessed with collecting and getting to know artists and we were spending, he and I all of our time in this space in 2021, while still working in in web 2, as our full-time jobs.
Speaker 2:And and then there was an opportunity really to make it our full-time job to show up more Holy and more effectively across two dimensions both for collectors like ourselves and to build a community of collectors that we can nurture and think long-term and and Upskill together. All of us could learn together. And then also, you know, by spending all of our time here, better support the artists who we were starting to develop these relationships with. These aren't real human, interpersonal relationships with not transactional relationships. So, you know, that was really the, the impetus to go all the way in and start proof and the proof collective, and start to do things like Grails, which was Kevin's idea, and I've sort of helped steward afterwards. So, again, to circle all the way back, I'm very much still learning and relying on smart people, developing my own sensibilities of taste and curation and relying on people much smarter than I am.
Speaker 1:Let me add, I'm going to challenge you a little bit here. Yeah, go for it. Do you think that curators, who are designated curators in the fine art world or in the art history world, don't you think that that, because of what I hear a lot of, is that I'm sure they still have people that are a lot smarter than them, that they look up to and that they learn from, and that they still need to bounce ideas off, and primarily as a filter? So would it be fair to say that Maybe it's like an early day, because I often find myself not wanting to take credit for things that are in the traditional art history world. I'm like, well, it's not fully me, but what if this is just a different version of it? What if it's like an early day where novices but couldn't we actually call it a curate? I mean, couldn't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think your point is well taken. I just like to be. You know, some people think you know words like that, labels like that, titles like that are loaded, and so I have no problem. I have no ego about who I am showing up as in that sense. So I like to sort of try to call that out, that I'm cognizant of the many things I do not know. That's really what I'm trying to get to is, you know, being aware of the things I know less about, and, by extension, we'll learn and acquire certain forms of knowledge over time.
Speaker 2:But I think to your point, or an aspect of your point.
Speaker 2:The other side of that is I'm I and we and you know many others who are in this space, including artists and collectors we are less dogmatic and indoctrinated in the way that things have previously been done, and to me that's fundamental to being part of a nascent movement.
Speaker 2:You know, some of that lack of indoctrination allows us to think more openly and freely and in novel ways, and that's exciting to me. That, I think, drives us all forward. I'm not saying this is something I'm doing. Holy, this is all of us, in different ways, thinking in new ways and collectively. That energy is building something, I think, very special. That wouldn't be possible if we were, all you know, reserved and unwilling to take risks because, you know, we didn't feel we were ready and didn't have enough knowledge and hadn't gone to art history, you know. So the other side of it is very exciting and, I think, fundamental to this, being a movement that has impact over the long term, totally dude, and just to share a little bit of my personal like this made me think I was thinking about this when you were sharing it.
Speaker 1:I mean, when I first started the podcast solo back in 2021, that was like my whole. That was like my whole thing. I had, like the dialogue around me quote unquote being ready was really strong, but the desire to be a part of something new was stronger and it kind of drug my insecurities through the fire. And if you look at some of my earlier podcasts, it was really me just not saying a whole lot. It was me just really just asking people that I thought were smarter than me questions on it in a live and not necessarily live, but, you know, on a media outlet and learning in public. And Kevin Rose Kevin Rose's podcast, talk about white space, was actually the first podcast, the only podcast I saw, that was doing something similar that I wanted to do. I'm like, if this is the only podcast centered around art, like holy shit, there is so much room to grow here. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Like there's no, and especially in the early 2021.
Speaker 1:days when people were only talking about punks mooning, apes mooning you know world of women being dropped and all these collectibles. It was like, oh, let me just quietly build this while everyone's, you know, having fun over here, and I'm, you know, still having fun myself, but recognizing the opportunity to, like, do something, and Kevin was a very big inspiration in that, and especially in those early days, you know doing that you know what you know.
Speaker 2:What that brings up for me is and maybe this is sort of a through line through through much of what we're talking about is, you know, kevin in in what Kevin as a human, I think it's fair to say, but in particular in those podcasts around that period of time, he was just deeply curious. Yeah, right, and so so he, you know, he wanted to have people on who could tell him and, by extension, in audience space. That was. It was also curious about the technology, about generative art, about being an artist and using blockchain in novel and unique ways, and I think you know, you and I and so many others you know the space is a hole in certain ways, but it's about curiosity, yeah, and through via curiosity, you acquire new knowledge and you listen to people outside of your current remit of understanding and circle of competence, yep, and you expand that circle of competence in so doing. And so I love that anecdote that his podcast was one of those first ones you were listening to and seeing. Totally, it was yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It was. It was like the only one that I saw, I mean outside of just trading, and like at the time I didn't have enough money to really trade. I didn't really. I was like I was really poorly managing my finances at the time and so I just couldn't find an authentic way to offer value and it and. But I wanted to be here, you know, I just didn't know how to participate, and that was that was one of the biggest catalysts to me, going like, fuck, like he's the only one doing this. There's got to be a lot of other talented artists, you know. So, yeah, hats off to him for that, because it was a.
Speaker 1:That was really you know where my roots were built, something on the, on the through line of generative art. Here, though, something that I've recently been curious about. You know, we have this, we have this digital medium. You know, the the art blocks revolutionized the way generative art was presented, transacted, you know, experienced, added a new layer, and it really kind of had its moment after, you know, decades of just kind of being an art for nerds, you know, and while it's, it still is like I'm still a complete nerd and I love it, but it's. It's a lot more respected is, I guess, what I'm trying. It brought a lot more respect to the genre and the medium and something that I, quite frankly, didn't really understand, especially in the early days, and shout out to prohibition. They were literally the reason why I started getting into it, because it was it was accessible enough for me to afford to like figure out my taste and what I liked and what I didn't like.
Speaker 1:But I'm rambling to get to a point here around. I recently bought the Demetri Terniak LACMA Ringers LACMA Edition output, and so the physical representation of a digital work is a topic that I want to dive in on, because you know, we, I still don't think technology is at the point, at least excessively outside of Danvis, to where it's really reasonable to buy a frame, and so I think I saw a tweet of yours, I can't remember when it was around the display of the display of generative art looks better as a physical form or it brings a new light to it. So I'd love to kind of understand, like, has your thought process changed on that? Have you? Do you still believe that? I'd love to kind of like dive into that a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's such, it's such an interesting topic. There's a bunch of different dimensions of it that I think are interesting to talk about. I think let's start with, you know, with the, with the piece around onboarding new collectors, and you talked about it. Like you know, generative art was was basically entirely disregarded as a from a collector standpoint for 50 years you know something to that effect except by a very small number of collectors, including the spalters are one of the the the longest standing and most significant collectors of physical digital art and generative art, computer code art, but otherwise, you know, mostly disregarded until the last couple years, but, to your point, still today. There are two primary hurdles at least one is most collectors, even, you know, 25 to 40 year old online internet native collectors who have disposable income. The notion of the following two things is hard to rock one, that a computer and that code generated these outputs and that they live as a JPEG is like just sort of hard, a difficult mental model for many. And then to that this lives on a blockchain and that you transact with crypto is like this other dimension that is also hard to rock. I say all of that to get to to this point that I think physical prints and physical objects are an increasingly interesting and necessary half step to onboard those collectors, that demographic I just described, ultimately over time into wholly digital, wholly NFT, generative art. But that going from zero to 100 is probably a fool's errand. So to go to you know someone who's buying physical art today and ask them to buy the JPEG of a generative output tomorrow, I think it is too challenging. And so using physicals really as an onboarding mechanism and bringing them into the broader ecosystem in so doing, for at least that reason, I think physicals are incredibly interesting as a medium and as a method to really expand the opportunity for all digital artists not not saying all digital artists should do that, right, for those who desire. I think it's. It's quite interesting and wise.
Speaker 2:There are so many other layers of this right, Bruno, there's, like you know, is it one physical print per token and do those move around together? Can they be unbundled? If unbundled, what does that mean to the token Right? And it's value relative to the value of, like maybe a one of one signed physical that was made available to that token holder? So you know there's, there's a lot there, but I think fundamentally something like prohibition. Let's. Let's use that example.
Speaker 2:You know, I think the work they are doing to make generative art for artists more accessible is is so important Right, it's, it's essential and such an important opportunity and problem to solve. But finding collectors for that work that's being produced there, I think, is a more challenging task. In some ways you can, you can solve the supply and accessibility side of it, but the the demand for that work, I think is challenging, given the number of collectors who care about generative art in our space today and are set up and willing to transact with either on an L2 and buy a JPEG. So you know, you can imagine if the output of the work that was generated via prohibition was a physical product and yes, it was fundamentally a token, it was backed by a token. But for a novice collector who doesn't transact in ETH and doesn't buy JPEG, if they could just go there and print a beautiful physical, yeah, you know, maybe that's an opportunity to really expand the addressable market.
Speaker 2:For what again is under the hood? You know, an NFT generated with our blocks engine, but the end user in some cases maybe, is abstracted away from that a little bit and over time is brought along for that journey of this is what an NFT means. Hey, this piece that you bought that's hanging in your house now as a physical is backed in these different ways and was generated in these interesting ways. There's a lot there that we could unpack, but I think as an onboarding mechanism at half step I'm super bullish on physicals. I really like that.
Speaker 1:And I look back to my own experience with it, like there is something really nice about looking at this without having it attached to any internet device. It like it's a completely standalone object, and I've found myself just like sitting here and looking at it, kind of in a meditation of just like understanding, not even just just. I don't even know what I'm really looking at, but there are certain points to it that I'm drawn at and I think you make a really good point, because I didn't really. I mean, you know, the way I understood crypto in general was through art. That was like the only way I understood it. That's how I was onboarded into the space, but I'm also incredibly digitally native, and so I think I think your point of like a half it's it's, you know it's. I think it's easy, because most of us here are zero to a hundred type of people. You know it's like when we find something, it's like okay, cool, like we, we. It may take us a while to cross the chasm, but like, once we cross, there's no half step. It's like it's a hundred percent or it's zero percent, and I think that's one of the challenges that I've also seen with other people is that most other people aren't like that and it's taken me a really long time to understand that most people and you could call it, call it crazy, call it psychotic, call it whatever, call it passionate. You know, probably a healthy blend of all of it, you know, but most people like it takes a lot and it's a huge risk.
Speaker 1:It's a. It's a. It's a new art form made with the computer. It's challenging the relationships of what humans and technology and the relationship that we have with it. Who's the artist Is the token, the art Is the code. The art Is like.
Speaker 1:What role does all of that play in the creation of and how do we value that? You know, I think we're also seeing that. I mean, I feel like the rest of the world will still take a while to grapple with that challenge, but I think we're grappling with it, with native AI works as well. How do people value AI? Like? What does that even mean? You know, and it's there's so many through lines of generative art in AI.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, but I think that's really where what I've also noticed and Kind of where we're pushing the boundaries, or where a lot of collectors are still trying to understand, like you know, outside of clear silver. You know how do you value AI, so it's it's really interesting that this is a I know I kind of went off into another topic here, but it's interesting as a second step, as an intermediary, like physicals or something people understand, and I think that you know, and I'm not sure if you agree with, like, I think that's been one of the biggest focuses of a lot of people here Is, at least from what I've noticed in the bear market, is trying to meet people where they're at, and I think, yeah, it's really like that's really our job here.
Speaker 2:you know, because, as much as I love it here and I love the tight little community that we have, especially kind of walking through fire of Literally everything that happened at 2023, we need more people, you know yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean that that point around AI is is Such an interesting one, and I think that the it would not surprise me if that's one of the primary topics of this year is you know, with the proliferation of, of AI and and the ease with which Almost anyone can create visually interesting Images and outputs, how do you differentiate and what does it mean to be the an artist using AI in a thoughtful way, and how do you value that as a, as a collector? You know, the obvious dimension to fall back on is Provenance, and you know how early, what was this artist Experimenting with these tools and producing work in these ways? But I think that that is only, you know, one of many dimensions that ultimately becomes interesting as we think about words that not are wholly generated by AI and in some cases, but but incorporate elements Of AI and those tools. I think that will will very much be central to this year in terms of the collector behavior.
Speaker 2:And, you know, I think it would not surprise me if a few of those well-known names that and you mentioned Claire, you know, rupé Renisto, there's there, you know, there's a handful, I think that are sort of obvious In terms of their distinct aesthetic and their provenance of having done this word for some period of time. But I really think we're gonna see. Maybe it's. Maybe it's 10. Maybe it's 15. Maybe it's 20 amazing emerging artists who are incorporating AI in really novel ways and using the tools and combining tools in very novel ways. That Will have it would not surprise me very big years, totally.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we're already seeing it with Delta sauce. You know, like, yeah, like Delta sauce has been, you know we've, we've had our like. We've like Bernardo shout out to Bernardo. Bernardo's actually put him is the one who put Delta sauce on all of our radars and Bernardo collected a lot of his super early work and to watch him kind of have his moment and people really figure out who he is on brain drops. That was a really cool moment and he uses AI to create the objects. But the composition is there. There, there's, it's a, it's a blend between AI objects and Photoshop. You know to where he aligns as he puts things together. It's not a hundred percent. You know unique and what Rupai Rene so did incredible, like it's. You can't, you just you can't deny you know. Did you see this?
Speaker 2:Did you see this controversy? You know, maybe it was a month ago, it was right after Miami around that piece that was Was it AI or was it, you know, hand painted, you know, yeah, yeah yeah, totally totally so.
Speaker 2:So you know, I mean that will be. I think another major topic this coming year will be Electors wanting to better understand the process behind how these pieces were created. At the moment, that that's almost wholly abstracted away from the end user. They, they just consume the yeah, the visual output of of this process. But you know, you can, I think there's an opportunity and someone will build it. Maybe we will, who knows? But to At the moment you can verify who minted a piece of work right, who, who, who was the creator of the work, but you cannot, with any Fidelity, verify how the work was created itself and so you can imagine you know, maybe you know, if some of these tools had web 3 Plugins you could.
Speaker 2:Then you know the creators, while it is connected to these tools, and then, by extension, you can very easily verify who created and how. And now all of that Information is contained in the collection, in the tokens, because you know, I think that will be a big topic this year is I see a beautiful visual output. I Want to know precisely the process that went into creating it, you know and you bring up.
Speaker 1:This is a great point, and I think, to touch on Claire a little bit, she talks about taste is the new.
Speaker 1:You know, tastes, the skill you know, and it's like, I think, with AI, at least in the beginning, like because I think you're talking about the next step, I think you're talking about step two.
Speaker 1:I think because where we're at with step one is, you know, in order to understand a lot of this new technology, you have to play with it and to ask people to actually play with it with the amount of other things that we're already doing, there's only so much attention we can spend. You know, we only have, like we wake up with a certain amount of energy each day and we can all. It's a very finite resource and To like put the onus a hundred percent on collectors, we'll, like we'll just start making AI work. Then you'll understand, kind of how it's made and it's like, while that is true I mean there's this not false it's kind of not really on. The collectors shouldn't have to like dive deep into AI tooling and understand Very similar to crypto as well. Like we can't expect the average person to go read the Bitcoin white paper, like, we can't like, it's just not gonna happen, you know yeah yeah, and it's the same with generative art, right.
Speaker 2:I mean we don't ask people to go under the hood, although I can make the case that we should do more of that. You know, I think that's a proof we should do more of of that bring people under the hood so they can understand why the project a is maybe interesting relative to project B, but that's not a requirement for generative art collectors to understand how the script is written and why it might be interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I mean, for someone like me though, I'm interested in that, so I'm naturally gonna do it, and so if I have a natural interest, I'm gonna do it. But I think you're very much right on the, on the broad scope. It's not really fair To ask that, to demand that of collectors, and I think that having some tooling in the creation process of how it's made We'll really matter to some people and that was a yeah, I remember that controversy that was. That was quite the. That was quite the hot topic. And I think you know I go back and forth between both camps. You know, on one side, I really feel like they should have disclosed that part of it was made with AI, but on the other end, if the art makes you feel good when you buy it, does it really fucking matter? You know, like, yeah, I mean I was back to these.
Speaker 2:That goes back to these dimensions we talked about, like how much context do you need or not? And I think that you know that's probably a sort of collector by collector Calculus, right, it's like for some collectors it's holy about how a piece makes them feel and for others you know they want that additional context.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I've often, you know, this is the challenge that I feel like, I think Especially us in positions that we're at and a lot of people in general like are facing. It's like, how do you Because art is so subjective, it's so nuanced, there's like, even going back to the, to the topic on prints, you know, does that if you, you know, with the fedenzas, like that's the most easy, as the easiest, you know, target here is that if you have the print, is the token still worth it? And how do you? Some people it really matters and some people it really doesn't how do you build for both?
Speaker 2:You know, you know, you know what's funny is I know a collector who he owned a fedenza and he he redeemed the print that came with that fedenza and so he, he has this beautiful, framed, I think, signed fedenza print in his home and then he sold the token. And his life experience, I would argue, is net positive from those steps he just took, because every day in his office he gets to experience this artwork, in the same way, maybe, or in similar ways to the way that you experience your churnyak Print, that's, that's in your space there. So he gets to experience this work of art every day, this beautiful print, high quality print, and he sold the token. I'm sure, if I'm not wrong, he sold the token, I'm sure, for, for you know, a great return on what he minted it for, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it is tough.
Speaker 1:It's tough and Because you can also look at. Like you know, rhinotic made a tweet about this. I just did this on one of our spaces. He's like what's really cool about digital art is that I don't the digital art movement, especially with what we're playing on, is I don't have to go to a museum To to go appreciate art, like the art doesn't have to be in my wallet or I don't have to go some place. There's no, there's no friction to me Appreciating art of this movement, it's all. I can just log on to my computer and whether it's in my wallet or not, it really doesn't matter. Um, I thought that was a great point that he brought up and it kind of smashed the delusion of like I have to own this to appreciate it, you know. But, um, I think your friend made out Well, and, as long as the person's happy, what if that person who bought it Obviously didn't give two shits about the physical? You know, like they just wanted to be digitally native and owning the token is more important to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, someone interesting. You know fellowship, you know fellowship, trust. They've done something. It went very unnoticed and under the radar, which is kind of upsetting to me. So I like one thing that they did that was really interesting and they did it with Rupi Rini sto, they did it with a few and they did with a few other artists that worked with them is they created what was called a print shop and they created their own print shop and they, to people who had certain collections, they would air drop print token and if you were to, basically what that did is that you could allow the print token one you could. You could enable it or burn it one time. So what it allowed people to do is, if they really didn't want the physical, they could keep the print token With the actual NFT itself and you could actually see whether it had been redeemed or not. Therefore, it was kind of a step in the right direction to easily you don't have to like, go through the trust of like, did you print it, did you not?
Speaker 1:You know, did you very you know it's all it's all bundled together and you can see if it was used or not, and I thought that was kind of an interesting way for people to collect both at the same time and really kind of help people in both camps make. You know, make that decision.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I love that. I'm just looking it up right now. So the fellowship print deeds. Print deeds.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that, that's super cool. So the fellowship print deed is an NFT that symbolizes your exclusive right to acquire an addition to print at a cost From a specific artwork within a collection released by fellowship. It can be stored, used to order your print or be actively traded on the secondary market. That's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you can sell the print deed itself. You know, like on a secondary market and keep the and keep the token. So if someone just wanted the print but they didn't want the NFT, you could sell them the the print deed.
Speaker 2:Oh and, and they can print your NFT, or they can print, yeah, that they own, no only the one that's assigned to that print deed.
Speaker 1:So they did it very limited to where everything that was dropped it was only for that specific artwork that it was dropped to.
Speaker 1:At least my understanding so yeah, like if someone just wanted to buy the physical off of you, you could then literally sell them a physical and not sell them the digital. You know, or you could sell, yeah, you know, or it did you get that school, so I don't know but it went widely on notice and I'm like how are people like, dude, this is so cool, like this is actually Innovative, you know, like this is a, it's just something real that we've been really struggling with Understanding how to navigate for such a long time? Um, you so, yeah, shout out shout out, shout out, fellowship on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're killing it.
Speaker 2:I love fellowship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, for sure, I mean they've, uh, yeah, we can get into it, like me. I mean talk about AI, like they are on both ends of the intersection of AI and photography, and I had actually had Alejandro on season one, um, to talk about a lot of this man. He's such a brilliant photographer, brilliant mind, brilliant, guy Um, and the way they're doing is that they're they're onboarding Traditional kind of whales, like you know Joel Meyer, whitz and Greg recruits in and a lot of the you know, and guy Bourdine, um, uh, they're tokenizing a lot of the works, but on the other side, they're like, completely on both extremes of the spectrum, they're like devoting so much resources and time and knowledge into curating AI art and AI photography. Yeah, um, yeah, so it's incredible, man, um, it's amazing. But, dude, we've kind of run the gamut here.
Speaker 1:One thing I really want to what? Another topic I really want to talk about is in your bio, uh, and it's something I learned about in Miami is you're a former rice boy, um, so I, I got. I want to lighten up, maybe talk about less about what.
Speaker 1:Three here and where we go wind it in there. But what, like what is your obsession with rice man? Or like what, what is your relationship? Right, I should say yeah.
Speaker 2:So I told you that, uh, my masters was, was focused on political ecology, which is the relationship between, uh, in many cases, farmers and government, uh ent entities and, um, you know, when you're doing a master's, you choose a very specific, highly, highly focused um area uh to to study. And so, uh, I have always been fascinated by food and farming and um health food and um medicinal mushrooms, all sorts of things. I lived in in Hawaii for six months and was on a farm that entire time and we were growing 25 varieties of bananas, and so we had, you know, this diversity of different foods that I was fascinated by, and all around this notion of um permaculture and agro biodiversity, these two schools of thought. So, during my masters, um, my very specific focus was on the way that these very small holder farmers, like you know, very, very meager um livelihoods and very challenging livelihoods, the way that, in South India, these farmers were using ancient varieties of rice, of which there are thousands, as a way to sort of reassert their agency and their sovereignty and, fundamentally, sort of rebuild their sense of self and self respect, relative to the subsidized forms of rice that are typically cultivated in those regions where the government provides this rice at a discount but then also demands that, by extension, you use chemical fertilizers on your uh, on your farm, to cultivate that rice. And so there's this growing faction of farmers in that region, in South India and elsewhere who are um taking up seed, saving and sharing these seeds amongst themselves and uh doing so, as I said, sort of as a way to reassert themselves and um their sense of self uh in that equation. So that's the rice boy um chapter. I mean it was just to give a little bit more color to that.
Speaker 2:You know, we spent I think two months in South India myself, a translator and a driver, and my colleague going into very remote rural areas of South India and talking to those farmers. You know they'd bring us into their, their very small homes and always share tea, sometimes food, together and learn about their livelihoods, learn about the challenges and drought is a huge issue Um there's an epidemic of farmer suicides where there was at that time, given how challenging their livelihoods are. So I mean that was a pretty beautiful uh experience to get to spend so much time with those farmers in their homes and learn about their lives and the reason I said initially there's a through line to the work that I'm doing now is like one, yes, those sort of power dynamics and the way that sort of crypto represents some of those or stands for some of those same same things, but also in terms of just being a? Um, a listener and being open minded to.
Speaker 2:You know, learn from others, and that could be others like yourself, boona and the Schiller team hanging out in Miami. That could be artists and learning about what makes them tick and sure, learning about their challenges and their creative process and doing so, uh, with with very few value judge judgments and just being open minded. Um, so that is the rice boy uh chapter, and I have somewhere back there, I have this beautiful handmade gift from one of the farmers we visited. He creates from these ancient varieties of rice, oh, no shit, uh, kind of sculptures. I'll send you a picture afterwards, later, please, so that that that follows me around.
Speaker 1:I love that dude. Uh no, and I think, honestly, man, the way we kind of ended, we ended this conversation right where we started, so I think I want to like tie a bow on it and wrap it up here, uh, cause I couldn't think of a better way to end it on that note, um and so I guess the the last bit here.
Speaker 1:First and foremost, man, just thanks for your time. Um, glad we were able to get scheduled. This has been a fun hour, uh, you know. And so I guess, as we wrap it up, you know, would love to kind of start looking into the future a little bit.
Speaker 1:You know, I know we talked about some of the centralized themes of some of the dialogues we're going to be having this year, but kind of more with you and proof with what you can share. Um, what is it that you're like like, most looking forward to in 2024?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:I think 2024 for us, it um is really about focus, um, and you know, prioritizing quality Um and that probably means, you know, a a reasonable cadence of releases with exceptional artists, with thoughtful supply, uh, for each of those releases.
Speaker 2:You know we'll continue to do our drill shows, for sure those are, those are really important and fundamental to to what we're doing in the storytelling part that we, that we talked about. But you know, doing a number of solo exhibitions and solo releases with very much top tier artists, that um that we've worked with in the past in most cases and um, and then doing leaving enough space amongst those things to experiment, and you know we have some fun ideas, both in terms of partnerships and with with some artists who have not done anything in this space yet, uh, and it's exploring things on ordinal, like you know. Leaving space to experiment and and innovate, because you know, as I look ahead to to next year, the idea and the notion of whole of only exclusively selling uh and platforming JPEGs is fine but not compelling and doesn't get me out of out of bed in the morning. So, leaving enough space to experiment and innovate, uh, while still being focused. Focus is the primary uh objective for this year.
Speaker 2:Uh, I think you know it's going to be really exciting year ahead. I think so too, man.
Speaker 1:And I, you know, I, I, as as much as I hated the bear market, I think it was a lot easier. There was a, there was a level of focus that we weren't distracted by the next shiny object. Uh, you know. So I think that's a perfect, uh, I guess company, you could call a resolution, uh, or through a line or a topic, to like it's, like it's it, because it's it's hard, you know it's, it's so hard with the shiny objects that are, that are being built here, um, and with all the amazing artwork that's being produced. So, um, I think it's fantastic. Man, uh, is there anywhere? Like go ahead?
Speaker 2:No, I was just going to say, uh, he, as we wrap, just to to send some flowers back to you guys and you, Boona, um, this has been a lot of fun. All of the work you guys are doing is thoughtful and intentional and and I know you're sort of growing at a very intentional pace and and being uh very considered about who you work with and how and uh and uh, it's much needed and deeply appreciated, man.
Speaker 1:Dude, and, and you know what, everyone on our team, including myself, is incredibly, uh, challenged when it comes to taking compliments, um, so I, I very much appreciate that. Man. It really means a lot to see, you know, cause a lot, of, a lot of the stuff we don't really say we do, we just do it and to see someone kind of pick up on the way we try to move or the way we'd like to be seen, um, it means a lot, man. Uh, you're yeah. So yeah, just yeah thank you.
Speaker 2:Um, you've got to get, you've got. You've got to get better at taking compliments. I know it's hard.
Speaker 1:That's going to be me for 2024. It's it's getting better at accepting, accepting compliments, uh, and, and I'm going to, I'm going to steal yours, just staying focused, because I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of uh, shiny distractions this year. So, um, but, dude, yeah, this is great. Is there anywhere where people lastly want to give you a plug, where people can follow you? Uh, where do you people want? Where do you want people to go first?
Speaker 2:No, go follow Boona instead. Dude off man All right?
Speaker 1:Uh well, dude, thank you so much, man. Uh, Eli, this has been a treat, and hang out for just a little bit. We'll let it finish uploading and, uh, we'll call it a rat man, but I hope you have a great rest of your day, man. Thanks, man, you too. Thank you for listening to the Schiller curated podcast. We hope you enjoyed the conversation. As we close that today's episode, don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and leave a five star review to help ensure you never miss an episode and to help others discover the curated podcast as well. To stay updated on our upcoming episodes, as well as our weekly Twitter space schedule, be sure to follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, at Schiller XYZ. Once again, thank you for tuning in and remember, if you're looking for it art is everywhere and it's up to us to appreciate and explore the emotions it brings to our lives. Until next time, this is Boona Signing off.