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CURAT3D: A series of conversations with the people shaping the culture and technology of the new internet.
This series is produced by SHILLR -- the most trusted marketing, media & consulting firm in crypto.
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CURAT3D: Natalie Stone - Stewarding the CryptoPunks Brand
In this discussion with Natalie Stone, we dive into the challenges of shepherding a beloved digital art brand in the ever-changing Web3 landscape. This episode provides a thorough exploration of the dynamic interplay between art, technology, and community in the digital age.
Natalie Stone
Website: https://www.nataliestone.co/
X (Twitter): https://x.com/NaughtalieStone
Cryptopunks
Website: https://hub.cryptopunks.app/
X (Twitter): https://x.com/cryptopunksnfts
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the most rewarding and challenging part of taking on the project has been trying to think about how to push the legacy forward while also doing that fully in dialogue with the community, while also not being fully subject to the whims of that community, because that community isn't a single entity. You know they're very diverse in themselves as well.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Curated, a series of conversations with the people shaping culture and technology of the new internet. This is a podcast series produced by Schiller, the most trusted marketing media and consulting firm in crypto. Before we jump in with today's guest, we want to make it clear that this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. I am your host, buna, and today I'm joined by Natalie Stone, an award-winning creator who spent 15 plus years at the intersection of art and tech and who's worked with creators like Childish Gambino, the Flaming Lips, justice and many more. Today she is the GM of the CryptoPunks Project, which is part NFT collection, part living art and technology experiment whose pixels are in the hands of the industry's most important tastemakers and permanent collections of museums across the world. Gm, natalie, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm doing great. I've been looking forward to coming on this podcast with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me as well, and I think, just for all the people who didn't, we we've saved you, we've spared you the, the shenanigans that that it took to get to finally hit, live today. But um, just note that it was a herculean effort on both parts um to make this happen uh, one of us may or may not have fallen down a sort of stair to bullets and one or one of us may or may not have blamed the other for their own issues.
Speaker 2:Um, so, uh, yes, we are, so back we're here. Um, yeah, just to echo what I was saying a little bit before, like it's, like it's been really cool as a, as someone who came in early 2021, have always loved punks have not have yet to be able to afford one yet, but just love the lore, love the what they mean to the community and just love the tech behind it and have just admired how you've really taken the helm. You know of this brand. That's probably incredibly challenging to to manage, so I'm really excited to have you on it's probably incredibly challenging to manage.
Speaker 1:So I'm really excited to have you on Girl. Thank you so much. I'm excited too.
Speaker 2:And yeah, it's been a crazy couple of years, for sure. Oh yeah, I'm sure crazy is an understatement, but from what you've been working on, I'm like maybe we can just start there, compared to and we'll get into, of course, a lot of these what you've like worked on in the past, but like I guess we could start like with comparative to where you came from. Um, what are some of the biggest challenges with taking on like this brand of crypto punks and what does that mean to you?
Speaker 1:you know yes, I mean, my background obviously was maybe more in in big tech and these huge brands, and I think the challenge is the challenge primarily to me has been co-building with community and taking on the stewardship of a completely sacred, beloved project that also had a very tenuous relationship with the founders, the creators, the artists, matt and John at points as well. So I'd say that the most rewarding and challenging part of taking on the project has been trying to think about how to push the legacy forward while also doing that fully in dialogue with the community, while also not being fully subject to the whims of that community, because that community isn't a single entity in some way. You know they're very diverse in themselves as well. So, yeah, that's probably been the biggest challenge.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean you touched on a lot of different great things there, because it's like CryptoPunks is a brand, but it's also not a brand Like. It's this weird thing where you what I've noticed, at least even from an outsider I wouldn't say outsider, but I don't own a punk, but there's this, there's this desire that I feel the community wants to like, from a, from a big part of the community. They just want you to do nothing. There's like. It's like evolve the brand but also do nothing at the same time. That has like every time I've seen some of the just the commentary on the timeline or whether it's external, internal. I'm like, wow, like, how do you guys manage that feedback? Like, how do you decide, like, what is really like? How do you decide what to take in and what to discard?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that question is on a personal level. I mean that's even just a question of you know how do you navigate, taking in the noise of criticism or you know or what's, and kind of dissect that and segment that out from what valuable feedback. And I think, kind of what you touch on is even just that large meta, philosophical, paradoxical question of what does it mean to do nothing and everybody having a different definition of what literally nothing means, and that just feels so meta, right, or Shakespearean in some way. The existential question.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I mean I think that, honestly, what I found is trying to rely on a couple voices that may have differing opinions but are trusted within the community and try to have deeper conversation and dialogue around why they believe what they believe, with like a smaller kind of circle around me, and in doing so, I think that that's kind of allowed me to filter out okay, this is helpful, this is what's not helpful. But yeah, it's still really complex. I wish there was like a cookie cutter answer to that, but it's almost, it's almost intuitive and day by day, yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 2:I imagine it's probably a challenge to like not get married to a certain train of thought here because of how fast, like the sweeping, the narratives just sweep here.
Speaker 1:Whenever I've done that, I've that, I've regretted it. You know, when you set an arbitrary timeline or a deadline or a date or even just like this will happen in this order or this has to be this way, I've always regretted not being more nimble. It's absolutely critical to success to take it day by day, you know, and that can be very what's the word like destabilizing in its own way, or this idea of building this larger roadmap, and you know, I think ultimately then you kind of have to establish these North Stars, but understand that that path will be a labyrinth, potentially.
Speaker 2:That's a great way to put it. Like've ever heard anyone put it better, cause it's. I actually had a friend that asked me, you know, like, how do you like working at Web3? You know, and I was like, well, here's what I really love about it and here's like here are some of the challenges and what I did love about it was that there was no sense of like being trapped.
Speaker 2:You know, at least from the way I view it is that when I was working a traditional job, it was very like this is what we do, this is the mission, like just stay on task, like whatever, and it felt like there was really no room to breathe, at least in the positions that I was in. Um, but here it's like it can like the choices are so infinite it can almost be overwhelming, but there is no sense of like this is the way things are and because, like you said, the moment you do that, the moment you kind of stick to a rigid kind of system, it, yeah, it can collapse.
Speaker 1:Or even declare. You know, or even declare oh, this is what we're doing and this is how we're going to do it. You know, I mean it's hard because you know your audience and the broader world crave some level of communication and certainty and understanding of what's next. But you know that's also very complicated because if you do that too soon and then you pivot, then you're there walking back with your tail between your legs as well. So it really is tricky in that way and I don't know if, I don't know if any brand or any project or artist has necessarily found the right balance there.
Speaker 2:You know at all the right, if there is one totally, uh, no, absolutely feel that uh, and it's, I guess, with the one. What I want to put a pin in and like go back to is, uh, you know you mentioned the word like destabilizing. Um, that can be like a good word, like it really stuck out to me. So I'm like I'm always really curious, like when it comes to like your routine after like outside of this place, like do you have any sort of kind of like, kind of uh, the word I'm looking for is like a traditional practice or something you do to keep yourself structured and to keep yourself sane, to come into a career or come into a job that is just inherently not predictable by nature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I live in California, so I'm on his new age.
Speaker 1:But you know, and to be honest that you know, I really had a strong practice, whether that was breath work or just going into the sauna in the mornings or journaling or playing tennis, which was kind of a new thing over the last couple of years, Really so grounding to me.
Speaker 1:But to be honest, I, when I entered, I had that even when I was in the most high pressure job, working directly with Sundar at one point at Google, and I literally threw it all away over the last two years. So I've actually been returning to it over the last couple of years or, I'm sorry, excuse me, the last couple months, weeks, you know, trying to find those boundaries and that practice again. And honestly, what I've found it's trying to find similar to Web3, find that flexibility with it and you know, just be like, okay, there isn't going to be this way that you can be totally regimented. You're talking to people all over the world, you guys are, you're kind of always on. So actually, just how do you find those moments of taking a breath or writing in your journal? But maybe your journal is just your iPhone notes app right now and that has been really stabilizing and grounding for me is finding those pockets and getting more firm with my boundaries boundaries.
Speaker 2:No, I really love that because it's something that I've been doing a lot myself. I have just historically been someone who like just I don't like writing things down. I don't there's this like weird resistance to writing it down, but the more. One thing I've realized is that there is just so much that happens here.
Speaker 2:It's just impossible to think without writing something down um, so I really I can appreciate that that regimen of like, yeah, kind of just putting your thoughts down, uh, balancing the time zones with all the different people in the world, like that's the boat. That's the beautiful part and the most challenging part for myself, because I have I have one of my best friends lives in australia and that is a wild prime zone difference to Vandert, you know, and yeah, but it's also what makes it incredibly fun, because I'm not sure you know, like I will never ask the question, but like you know, growing up in a certain era, you probably lived in an era where, like, there wasn't the internet for a little while and then you got to see the rise of the internet and how big of a deal this actually was.
Speaker 1:I love that you're like. I will never ask a woman her age, but yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was raised by a Southern mother, you know, and she just told me to never ask women their age.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm actually a micro generation where I thought I didn't have a computer in my house. I got a computer. Then I didn't have social media in high school and college. I remember in college when Facebook was only for college students. You know, I have the full being on the cusp and kind of this interstitial relationship to technology and I've actually kind of thought a little bit about and there's, I think, a pretty famous article about how this micro generation that I live in is actually considered super capable and adaptable because they understand both sides of this line of pre-tech, post-tech, pre-social media, post etc. And so it allows them to be more nimble in business specifically, and so it allows them to be more nimble in business specifically, and I feel like that's.
Speaker 2:I'm in that same generation, um, where I, but I think, too long without the internet. You know, it's like people really struggle. Uh, people that were maybe born in like the seven, you know, like the the seventies, or like the sixties or the seventies, or probably even the early eighties, um, probably have a harder time, you know, with this, or obviously older, you know, because they've, because it's just that's not the way things were, and I remember, growing up, my parents definitely were successful in their own way, but they taught me a certain way to do things that turned out that that's none of what I wanted to do and there was this whole other path that they didn't, they couldn't predict. How could they, you know? Um, so kind of curious to go back, like while we're while we're on this, uh, reflection of, like you know, kind of growing up. Um, you've had a really impressive career. Based off the research I've done, it's been really cool to look at some of the projects you've worked on. I'm curious, like, maybe growing up for, like what were some of your inspirations?
Speaker 1:oh man, um, you know, and I think the first thing that comes to mind is that when I was really young, I just was a super avid reader and I don't think there's one specific story that I can latch on to. But I want to just respond as authentically as possible. I just super lived in this world of reading and imagination and my family, we traveled and moved around a lot and so I really had this interior world. So when I think about some of my early inspirations, I think it was just this idea of fantasy, imagination and play that I kind of lived in on my own. When I think about then you know, inspirations you know like, then you know, as I'm getting older, artistic inspirations, gosh, let me think, wow, it feels silly that I don't have an immediate answer to that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I was really fascinated with David Bowie at a pretty you know pretty much in high school, and I was fascinated with him because in a lot of ways you know, bowie really represents genius to people.
Speaker 1:But actually what Bowie was was an avid researcher and consumer of culture and curatorial and willing to create this, interestingly enough, very deep boundary between who he was and then who he was as an artist and really live and perform that and live life in some ways as a performance, yet have this very intellectual and strategic and hardworking I guess part of himself that he didn't necessarily present, and also having an eye for amazing collaborators in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:And so I've always really like I was originally drawn to Bowie, like who is this weird spaceman, you know, with this magical, you know, you know personas and costumes and fashion. And then, as I, you know, got deeper into understanding him, I I really started to see him as a curator curator of himself, of identity, of of art in this way that I guess I, I relate to in some way, you know. So, put it, taking A and B and putting it together as kind of and and seeing how that could be threaded, was something that I think I has been, that has been inspiring to me and how I approach what I do. So, yeah, I'll go with the belly, that's that's, yeah, that's like.
Speaker 2:What an answer. I'm surprised you hesitated on that because that's it's. It's. It's incredible because I think a lot of people don't I think a lot of people, especially when looking at performers like you just look at what you're getting. You know, you just look at like, you just look at like the, the output, um, and not necessarily question what the input is, um, you're like where they're getting that from, or like how they're doing it or why they're doing it, um.
Speaker 2:It's a similar reason to why I am just obsessed with Tool's lead singer, maynard. You know, like he's like philosophically, like it's interesting, he doesn't. He's the headline singer for three different bands, one of them with a rabid global fan base, but he doesn't consider himself part of the band. He just considers himself a vocalist as a separate vocalist of all of the bands. He just considers himself a vocalist as a separate vocalist of all of the bands. He's at um because he he works on top of the music. He doesn't help make the music um, and so like it's you know, that's just like one example, but it's, it's looking beyond, like what the output is and like why they're so unique. That I think is super impressive and it probably. You know it's probably an early thread or early through line of like where you're at today and like what you like, enjoy doing.
Speaker 1:But I found that really inspiring, so yeah, Wait, can I give you another one that's like really reveals me, okay, and this is, this is a childhood inspiration that actually threads through the present day, but I was really into Greek mythology as well, and I think. I was. I mean again. I think I've probably said this many times now, but you know, imagination and you know, and mythology was just so interesting to me as a kid. I'm forgetting the name of that book, but we all had it. That was like the book Gosh, I can picture it Well.
Speaker 2:I mean of course.
Speaker 1:I read the Iliad but I was too young at this point.
Speaker 1:It was just like a childhood book about a tale of mythology and I was so drawn to these female heroines and these complex characters that are really addressing like these archetypal experiences of human emotion and faults and fallacies etc.
Speaker 1:And then that probably drew me and empowered me into, you know, being really into literature, of course, you know, and building upon that and you know, and then it actually was actually some of my first legs and and journeys into kind of theory with joseph campbell and the hero's journey, which has also been incredibly impactful into my way that I see my life, my spiritual life, my natalie and living in this world.
Speaker 1:And now I've been in this weird space recently where I've actually been listening to reimagined or kind of revisionist, you know, be it queer or you know, re-looking at these stories and these new lens and I listen to them to go to sleep and they're so comforting to me, so weirdly I guess I just wanted to throw it out there for Greek mythology because it's been incredibly impactful and then the references are all over. You know, I mean, you know Greek mythology, you understand art a million times better. You understand your world a million times better, and it's that type of inspiration that gets so ingrained in you, that just shapes you and shapes the way that you I don't know look, see, reflect create.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, that's. I love that you listen to those as you go to bed and I'm like that's, it's really cool and I think it's super interesting to like look back at some of these with a completely different lens. Like I look at some of the old TV, or like I think I reflect back to like some of the old TV shows you know, like an example it has nothing to do with Greek mythology but it has a different topic is like you look at the Office, you know, and looking through a different like if you watch that now, you're like wow, that was actually allowed to air on TV. Like if you watch?
Speaker 2:that now you're like, wow, that was actually allowed to air on TV. It is kind of crazy to see what they said and looking at things from the world today versus how we experience them in the moment and like where we were at. But I can, as someone who practices a spiritual path, you know for quite some time like I can really get down with that. And there's a lot of probably, there's probably a lot of weaving between Greek mythology, religious principles, spiritual principles. You know that kind of tie into you know a lot of those, um, yeah, just like a lot of those archetypes, a lot of the ways of being, um, and I find that, you know, the more I'm actually doing is something similar, except I'm listening to Lord of the Rings, which is, you know, my favorite, like I am just like I'll die on two hills, and that's Lord of the Rings and tool.
Speaker 2:You know, like those are my two nerds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's such a nerd I totally belong here, um, but it's. There's also a lot of like Tolkien, like Tolkien talks about multiple times that Lord of the Rings isn't a fantasy novel, it's like a, it's like a historical, it's like a mystical historical reference with a, a lot of ideology baked into it, you know, with a lot of like um I can't remember what's the word.
Speaker 2:I'm looking for the kind of these texts that are passed down from from generation to generation, like england's kind of um, yeah, kind of just like, yeah, untold stories and it's like really what we wanted to create for themselves, um and so, yeah, I mean, I love this rabbit hole I love, like I could keep going.
Speaker 1:Which I mean? Do we want to talk about wizards? I don't know we, we could.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, like we have tap, I mean it could be relatable to web 3, we have the taproot wizards in the on on ordinals. Uh yeah, I mean we don't, we don't have to. But Gandalf, like I, I can quote so many Gandalf lines that have just literally made an impact in my actual life. So you know we could talk about that, but glad we went there. You know, do you kind of see, I guess I'm curious, maybe this is a little out there and maybe this is just throwing spaghetti at the wall, but something that really stuck out to me is you're kind of talking about like the Greek mythology and the archetypes and kind of like the way like humans interact. Do you do you see like a correlation with that, with like certain traits and punks, like are there certain punks that have like certain archetypes like that?
Speaker 1:you were just I mean, I think, yes, 100, because I think I mean, first of all, there's this concept of like what are you projecting onto onto these characters? And I think that you know that's just self-fashioning across time generally. But 100% like and I think that's what's so interesting is in the CryptoPunks world it's not always the most rare trait that is valued, and so I think the most emblematic of that is the hoodie, and I think the hoodie has become really synonymous with. I am aligned with Web3 culture, I am philosophical, I believe in this, you know I'm OG, so there's this archetype there. But then there's, like, some other little interesting archetypes that may or may not be known.
Speaker 1:I've been kind of going down the rabbit hole with wild white and wild rights. I like have this, like lore that they're hackers and they're kind of builders, et cetera, which I totally love, you know, and it was because of that when I picked my punk that I didn't pick a wild white because I was like, well, I don't represent that enough, though I was. I was thinking about it, to be honest, because I love the trait. But you know, yeah, I mean, let me think, I mean that's a great question. I mean those are two. Those are two pretty good ones, but you kind of do see these archetypal personalities like definitely hoodie is OG, crypto maxi to me, you know, with a bit of a philosophical, philosophical, philosophical bend, and then, the wild whites are you?
Speaker 1:know, feel like the mad genius hacker builder vibes to me. So two archetypes.
Speaker 2:I would. I would generally like I think I would agree I hadn't heard someone like put words to that, so but like there's obviously. There's obviously a feeling you know you have when you look at or when you see some of these punks and I think the person that sticks out the most on, like some of the wild, like the well, are you talking about specifically albino or just like?
Speaker 1:white hair, white hair specifically. Yeah, so like the wild, the wild way, are you going to say the person that stands out to you is well, who are you?
Speaker 2:going to say 113? Go ahead, yeah, 100%, 100%, because I don't think he's got that as his profile picture anymore.
Speaker 1:I think he has 13 of them, 12 to 13, somewhere in that range, which you know. He owns a lot of them, and I think there's almost this idea of like I put in this like sense of integrity, this sense of rebellion. I'm definitely projecting all of that onto the wild white trait and it might be probably because of one one.
Speaker 2:Three I mean, that's it's what's really interesting about him. Is that like, regardless of like, whether you believe in what he says or not, or like you know, regardless of like your opinion he has like been someone who has really forced people I guess I wouldn't say force, I guess I would say on like he's been so brute for, uh, brute force to like unlock people to start or like unlock people's ability to think creatively. I think that was something that was really not that it was missing, but it was very small, it was very few and far in between, before he kind of came along and just rejected a lot of the meta and, I think, made some people upset but encouraged a lot of other people to think really clear. So it's kind of a cool. Goes back to the earlier part of like Punks just being like. When I first saw Punks coming in in 2021, like, granted, it was a different space then I still think this is probably still mostly true today, probably with a few exceptions as we've gone on in time.
Speaker 2:But I looked at punks when I didn't know anyone else to look to. I was like, wow, like these people claim these things when ethereum was really hard, it was hard to claim in 2017, you know, and I've always just had a general appreciation towards it. I even had a fun story when Deez fractionalized his punk back in 2021, I made one of those my PFP. I was like, well, I think I can do this, like I own a fraction of this, like we're just going to test this out, like it's not like there's any rules. But I was trying to be like we're just going to test this out, like it's not, like there's any rules, but I was trying to be. I was trying to like be thoughtful about it, like I was brand new.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to like piss anyone off, but like even just changing that and having some sense of ownership caused me to think differently about what I said and how I said it. Like. So even owning a fraction like literally $10, like I had no money at the time forced me to think in a different light. And it was a hoodie punk. It was a hoodie with a mustache. That's the one he fractured?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it is very true. I mean, I think that CryptoPunks are very much the forefather mothers of this space and thinking about that moment, and honestly it's interesting because when we were working on the CryptoPunks book that's getting published with Phaidon, we dug into the discord in these early conversations and early DMs with one another, and I think the most fascinating thing is to is to realize that there obviously was some level of just, you know, being beyond early adoptersters. Like there's something really intelligent and adventurous and bold and curious about being an early claimer or, you know, I mean an original claimer and at the same time, you know, you see, these early days no one had any idea what was going to be. You know, and people making you know, I mean, and I'm not even going to say anything, I'll say this because I don't think they'll be offended but you'll see Eric and Matt and John having very definitive, you know, perspectives on things that turned out to be totally, totally not the meta.
Speaker 1:We're totally not the meta, no, so it's really interesting or even people like Tony Herrera, who claimed them and then forgot I mean literally forgot about them and then was fed to then realize what had happened. You know, tony is totally the grandfather of the space. So it's also this interesting thing because there's this you know crazy moment of insight. Also this interesting thing because there's this you know crazy moment of insight and you know, there's also luck and there's also really having no idea where it would go, and I think that's really exceptional. And sometimes I think about some of these newer punks and that's kind of this question that's been asked. You know, are the real geniuses the people who invest now or, you know, originally had this moment of being a climber and like, oh, it's a really interesting, you know way to ask that yeah, it really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, yeah, are the smart people yeah, exactly the people who claimed it for whatever ethereum was at the price you like, just the gas fee? Um, uh, or you know? Are there people that are like, are those people selling it? Are there smart people getting out, you know, um, or or are the people that are buying it now, like the best you know, are they the smartest people? I think it's a fair question.
Speaker 2:Like there's been a lot of movement, you know, with punk, like I we've seen, yeah, I just the, you know the, the sales bot has been like pretty busy lately. Um, and I'm kind of curious, like what I've noticed, at least with some sentiment of of others, about, uh, some of my friends that are punks, like you're like, wow, like you know, we're kind of getting, we're getting an entirely new community of people here. Like there's been a lot of people that it's like their first time owning a punk, you know, or people that maybe have one, or whatever the case may be, like how have you noticed? Like, maybe and I try to keep these podcasts like not as topical, but I can't help but ask, like, what's kind of the vibe shift been Like lately? Have you generally seen people be more active or more proud to own the punks? Like, what have you kind of seen with this kind of shake out of the old.
Speaker 1:Well, I think what's interesting about it is you know it depends what space you're, you know what container you're looking in, you know what is the reaction in Discord what is a reaction in a private Telegram group?
Speaker 1:What is the reaction on some of my twitter groups, etc. You know, I'm sure there's, there's groups that I'm not a part of. You know, and I think that I I'd say overall how that it feels like the sentiment is positive and while there have been times where I do feel like you, you know OGs feel a sense of, you know my community is changing, especially, you know, when it was the total bull market which I think actually maybe, how much punks exploded, maybe had a negative you know not maybe definitely had a negative impact on the health community.
Speaker 1:But I would say now sorry, excuse me one second, my headphone fell out I'd say now, I think once you're a punk, you're a punk and you're welcomed in in some level.
Speaker 1:And I think there's even people that are excited about how much you know that we might have more punk owners, diverse wallets, than we've ever had in the history of all punks, and I think there's some aspect of that being an indicator of health of the community in some way. So I think overall, the vibe shift has just been mostly positive and the people that are also acquiring punks a lot of them either tend to be huge art collectors and they're maybe doing it anonymous I mean, maybe behind some of these large alien sales or there are people that have been in the community for a long time, that are known by the punk community in some way and when they finally get their punk it's it's celebrated because they finally made it. You know, there's not I haven't seen too many punks coming in from, you know, like outside of web3 entirely, you know, unless you're a major art collector, to be honest totally.
Speaker 2:That's actually. That's really cool to hear. Like, kind of like the yeah, like that diversity, um of of wallets and like, because I, you know, with something we we also always looked at, uh is like how, like, what's the supply of all these NFT projects? Uh, and you know, obviously the more concentrated like, you know, the the like, the easier it is for them to manipulate. But it's really cool to kind of hear that and I feel like that is the pinnacle of like, like when they say wag me, like, at least my version of wag me is like when I get a punk, like that's like there will be signs and I will have a cowboy hat punk because I am from Texas, and that is just.
Speaker 1:The cowboy hat is a very beloved trait, so I'm here for that, for you.
Speaker 2:I love it and I know a few friends that have some cowboy hats, but I don't know many who would be willing to part. That's the problem. That is the problem Because, you're right, it is a very beloved trait. But yeah, no, it's I mean. And it's yeah, you've definitely, I mean since Yuga, you got, you've definitely, I mean since you get took over punks, uh, or you got acquired, um, the IP. There's definitely been like a lot of, yeah, a lot of like shift, a lot of change.
Speaker 2:You know kind of what we were talking about earlier around people just having that sense of like this is my community and I just wanted to be the way it was and like don't do a damn thing and, um, I mean to take a small pivot but then come right back. That's kind of how I feel. That's how I felt with the new Rings of Power episode TV show on Amazon. It's like, oh my God, don't do a thing. Lord of the Rings was literally perfect, you don't need to do anything. And same thing with the Halo live action TV show. I grew up with that game and it feels like there's like this, like it feels like there's when, when you're like a diehard, you can't help, but feel some sort of like oh, they're not pure, this is just extractive, they're just. You know they came in late, I was early, but one thing I have challenged myself to do is, you know, like, after a season and a half of rings of power, I've like really enjoyed it because I think there was a sense of like, there was a question that I was looking for them to showcase of like, how do I know that they genuinely care about what they're doing? Um, and you know, in the rings of power, it was when they started talking about tom bombadil, which is like a uh, he's a figure in the first lord of the rings book but not mentioned in the movie, and they, they had some like really good references and like gave him the good backstory. I was like, oh, that's when it clicked for me. I was like, wow, you know, like they care. You know, uh, and that's that kind of softens, soften me up a little bit, uh, and I was like, okay, now, now I can enjoy this series.
Speaker 2:But I think that's it's part of that curse of like how do you grow something but keep the core community happy? I think that's a problem that every NFT project or every I don't know, I consider punks more of an art, like just a body of art, than an NFT project. I'm not sure, yeah, like how you guys think about that, but, um, yeah, like that's got to be a challenge. So some of the, some of the milestones like you guys had had, it was like number one, the acquisition. I saw there was a lot of heat around that. Um, there was, you know, the nina chanel drop which, like I thought was really dope, but there was obviously some confusion around that. Um, then the free to claim. Then I'm just like, I'm kind of curious like when, like what was kind of the hardest part, or I guess, maybe out of all three of those which maybe stuck out as like one of the most challenging parts to navigate.
Speaker 1:yeah, well, I mean I wasn't. I wasn't there during the acquisition, but obviously I still. You know, I was maybe two months later working at Yuga, at that point, maybe three. So you know, at that point I think it was more of just an education period, so that one didn't impact me. I mean, obviously, nina, the Nina Chanel drop, the Pumpkin Residence drop, you know, was probably the most difficult to navigate. I think we're still navigating it.
Speaker 1:I think, you know, not only is Yuga navigating it, the community's navigating it.
Speaker 1:You know that was because I did feel that we were aligned on a North Star and, you know, and had been so thoughtful about making sure that Matt and John were on board. We're really trying to message the community what this was, what this wasn't, and I think that at the same time, you know, I wish I had engaged the community more, to work more intimately with Nina as well, to be more in dialogue. But when we talk about mass adoption, and you know, I mean unequivocally Nina Chanel is one of the biggest contemporary artists of our time, like full stop, and she's also, you know, a huge Web3 fan. And you know, two weeks later she had a drop with Air Jordan that broke the internet literally, and so there's such a. You know, you know I still stand by her as an artist and the concept of the project and simultaneously, you know, there was so much learnings from it and it really has shifted the course of you know, where do we go next with CryptoPunks? You know, and you know. And, of course, there's more fear at Yuga.
Speaker 1:you know, and I am more cautious and I see that I had blind spots and I think one of my blind spots was just kind of accidentally stepping into a culture war in some ways that I didn't see coming. You know, that was also maybe the hardest part of it was. You know, I am firmly a believer in facilitating art and artists and their vision and I'm never going to stand in the way of that vision. I think, just on a personal level, to see that level of vitriol around maybe some of the politics, the cultural aspects, race, gender, that was, I think, maybe what was so difficult because it just that hit my, my value.
Speaker 2:Sorry, that was kind of a rambling answer but no, no, no, it was no, it was really good. And there's there's a lot of things I want to. Yeah, that was. Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that Cause, like I think a lot of you know, like we don't, I I'm I like asking people like yeah, like, how did that feel?
Speaker 1:You know, like I, like like we, we inherently as humans have a lot of feelings, and I mean, I mean how it really felt like on a real level was, and I'm sure you saw this from the way that at least I personally tried to navigate the situation. I cared about my team, I cared about CryptoPunks, I cared about the CryptoPunks project and I cared about Nina. I mean, I'll put Nina up higher. You know, I cared about her at this point and I felt that if she was getting a lot of, she was getting a lot of had to bear the brunt of existing resentment towards Yuga, dating back to the acquisition. Essentially, you know, that might never even be totally solvable, you know, and that's a question that I ask myself, I don't know. You know you said, oh, there's this moment where I knew that the new and I believe it's on Amazon, right, the new series on Amazon, like they care.
Speaker 1:I don't know if the CryptoPunks community necessarily feels that yet, and I wish they did, because I really can testify that not only do I care, you know, as me, who often lives in this weird in-between space, as both Punk and Yuga, I really believe that everyone at Yuga cares, and including the founders.
Speaker 1:They deeply care and they want to do right by the community and they really want to do right by the collection and they want to do right by Matt and John and they, you know, and I have seen them, have opportunities on the table that someone who didn't care might take, if that makes sense, and they have unequivocally feel like a deep sense of responsibility and respect and reverence and I do think that that I wish I in my bones that that was that was felt 100% by the community and I accept that it might never be and that's a hard thing to yeah, really yeah, thank, first and foremost, thank you for sharing that, um, because, like, yeah, it's like, I feel like that is the hardest part of of being involved in anything is being able to accept that maybe the original ideal or, like the wish, may not ever happen.
Speaker 2:I would challenge that a little bit to say, like, this is still really early and I think that will show on a long time horizon. Because, like it funny, but like it may sound funny, but like it's very real. Like even my journey with lord of the rings, like, or the rings of power, like that, that was a very individual journey. You know, for me, um, it was like I didn't really talk about it a whole lot and I didn't really vocalize it, maybe to like, except for like a few friends who cared enough to hear me yap about that, um, but like, that was very much like an introspective, like individual thing that didn't really require any other outside voices. Um, that was, that was me number one, just following my own curiosity and going deeper into the lore, um, like reading the books that I I've loved the movies, but I never read the books.
Speaker 2:So, like, now I'm finally reading the books, uh, but if I wouldn't have done that I wouldn't have known that additional story. So a lot of it like for me, if I'm being really honest, and maybe this can be a reflect, this is like a reflection of the community, like humans. The psychology of humans is so, it's so crazy, the psychology of an individual human and then humans at scale, like together. That's always fascinated me, like whether it's markets or whether it's groups or communities or whatever the case may be, like. There's like individual sentiment and there's group sentiment. But it might be like an individual journey you know, for each person to do and it may just be like one at a time.
Speaker 1:And like the thing that I think is really challenging, probably, and individual time and even being in the discord and you know, when things were as hot and vitriolic and tense as they could possibly be around the Nina Chanel drop you know being in dialogue and just being like I hear your feedback and really listening to it and receiving it just one onon-one as an individual.
Speaker 1:I felt that, um, that was at the very least it earned respect and people felt heard, and I think that that is what makes this job or you know my position sometimes difficult. Scale, like I don't know how scalable it is to have a conversation with every crypto punk, but I'm willing to, you know, 100% slide into my DMs guys and girls, and so it's interesting because I actually feel like that has been the most impactful. I I think that I have built those with a lot of members in the community and you know I even had a punk party at my house at the beginning of last year and that actually I felt was really impactful for them that I invited them into my home because it was intimate, you know, and it felt very natural to me. I love hosting, but that act created a lot of intimacy and trust with the community that I didn't even really understand at the time or I didn't yeah that I've only understood later how meaningful it was, you know. Or building that individual sense of trust.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's really cool that you did that and like, I love that it like it was thought out, but not in the way that, yeah, like, not like, because, like, yeah, you learn something at the end. But that wasn't the reason why you did it. You know, it was like, just like, have a good time, you know, but I think the unintended consequence of how that strengthened the community is really cool to hear and as someone who in their previous life, before this industry, worked in escalations at a call center for two and a half years, I can tell you just to validate what you're doing and what you did is that most people's frustration boils down to a lack of being understood, um, like a lack of being heard. There is a miscommunication that is the at the root of every of every resentment. You know, uh, vitriol, like you know, vitriol infused comment, Um, it's, it has nothing to do with the thing that they're mad about.
Speaker 2:You could like, ironically enough, um, but a lot of people just want to be hurt, um, and I think that's really powerful that you're willing to do that on an individual basis, cause it's, uh, it's not easy and you know, going back to what you were saying earlier, like balancing all of that you had.
Speaker 2:You know, you seem like very much like a co-regulator, where you had like Nina's uh, you know, nina, to um think about, yeah, the punks to think about, yeah, yuga, think about, yeah, drone self to think about. You know, like, how do you feel and like trying to balance, prioritize that. It's probably really hard. It sounds like you probably took in like a lot of energy and you like kind of feed off of a lot of that and you can really, um, take that in and do a little alchemy to, like, you know, translate that into a solution. Um, so it's from as someone just observing, yeah, that's like really hard. And I think you are like I think you've definitely heard like this in my aspect like you have the coolest title, like the gm of, like of crypto p, like I cannot think of a cooler title.
Speaker 1:Like I know it stands for general manager, but like I mean, it's definitely, I feel very honored to be in this position. Like many folks, I definitely feel, yeah, of course I feel some sense of like imposter syndrome at all times, but that's only because I care, and you know I, I, I want to be deserving and I want to do my best, um, for this project, for this project. I mean, I'm at the point where, yeah, I care so deeply about this project and CryptoPunks and I know that ultimately in its long, long history, you know I will be but a small. You know, I don't know what the right word is like sliver of time, dark mark on its history. But I really do think a lot about the concept of do no harm. You know, I think Sean Bonner might have already kind of proposed that to me and it's resonated with me ever since. But, you know, leaving something at the very least neutral to how you inherited it.
Speaker 1:And you know, and that's my mission in my stewardship now, and I think that's kind of the shift that I have taken on since you know, as much as possible is to think about really, what does stewardship look like for this collection? And I think in the beginning it was really about archival work and kind of, you know, getting ducks in a row. Then there was this period of time where I was like, okay, I want CryptoPunks to be representative of something bigger than themselves in this community, and that was to me about mainstream awareness, adoption and reaching that world that might be punk, curious. And now I've sort of actually landed somewhere in the middle of both and I think the lane that makes the most sense for crypto punks is thinking a lot about the art world and the art world being receptive to them, and starting there when I think about, you know, preservation and stewardship and, like you know for lack of a better word adoption and education, um, and I think that's a healthy place for the project to be right now it's, it's.
Speaker 2:It's fascinating because, like you know, on one hand, crypto is like at least maybe you know, maybe this is me projecting but one of the reasons that I came here was that it was kind of just so ridiculous that I couldn't not pay attention to it, like, like it. Like it, whether it was punks, whether it was NFTs as a whole, whether it was crypto as a technology, whether it was like, it was kind of just like there was this sense of, you know, cypherpunk and rebellion and like we don't really need to pander to anyone. They're just going to come to us. You know, type of beat. And while I still believe there's a part of that like I think you just answered, yeah, like definitely down to like unpack this a little bit more.
Speaker 2:But, you know, when it comes to stewarding, to the fine art world, like and you mentioned like kind of stewardship means like getting awareness, education, you know kind of maybe targeting the people like on the middle, like, who are like on the fence. They're not like super against it. How do you like, how do you go about doing that? Like, where, like, do you start at the institutional level? Do you still like like, what are these circles? You know like where do you even start?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wish there was a flow that we could use. It seems to be about individual relationships and it's actually been something that's been interesting for me because, you know, I never as silly as this sounds I never realized how important just knowing the right person was. And at Google, ultimately, you know, though, I did bring a lot of my. My background was in music. I had a lot of music relationships that I was able to bring to the table. Pretty much, if Google calls you, you're answering the call. You know there's no sell in here.
Speaker 1:You know whether it's what is the, what is the line like fame, fortune or or, or heart or something like that fame, fortune or love. Google often offered all three of those to artists or any collaborator, and so I think for me, with the fine art world, I think it's been about building those relationships, being in the places where I can have those relationships organically. But I've also been somewhat and pleasantly surprised. I mean, I often find allies at many of these institutions and then, once you find that ally, it's actually about getting through that ally's boss or the bureaucracy of that literally country, or that country's regulations on crypto or their perspective on crypto if it's a state-funded institution or nationally funded institution. So it is about these individual relationships that can also be very serendipitous when you find them, and so that is and as someone who is more so, you know more of a builder, you know wants to be making more, you know I've been shifting more into this.
Speaker 1:Okay, how am I building partnerships? How am I in the right rooms to have these conversations? But yeah, I mean, I was at Basel this past year, you know Basel Basel proper and Art Basel proper in Basel and we were screening done in three days just by attending dinners, having meetings, having conversations for punks, I'd say as a project, than I had been able to get done over email for a month.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, a bit of a winding answer, but it's kind of a winding process as well, you know, and we're starting to see the fruits of the seeds that we've planted. I mean, it's been almost two years. I'd say that we've had the Punks Legacy Project, which is getting punks in museums, getting punks in museums, and I do believe I can feel that that momentum is starting to pick up again.
Speaker 2:um around crypto punks, um and per collections of major institutions, yeah, I love that yeah, it's yeah, I mean I feel like, yeah, in the in in the traditional art world, I think what, what else like, what excites me about this is this industry is that it's so fast because the traditional world is just so slow. And I've seen with a lot of people that I'm friends with and just that either have done work with the museums or they've had any affiliation. It's just that there's nothing fast Like and I mean in any company in general, like a behemoth of a company it doesn't matter whether it's an art institution or not Like there's nothing that it happens on the web, there's nothing that's nimble. So it's really dope to see like some of those things starting to bud. It's, I'm sure, at the time, kind of dealing with the you know, like I knew you came in shortly after the acquisition.
Speaker 2:Like you know, it was probably really challenging in the beginning. It was really daunting coming in and seeing all the yeah, like the mixed feelings, the mixed, you know, opinions, and then also trying to get to work at the same time Like, yeah, that probably has to be. That had to be really challenging. But I think, on the same beat, though, something that, like I was really fascinated was, uh, just this, um, like the punks restoration project, you know, like you guys like have gone, like the punksapp site, like looks beautiful. You have like index, you have legacy, you have projects, you have goods thank you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want more people to go the website hubcryptopunksapp check it out, because it is a repository for information and, honestly, the site was really important to us actually to build because we needed a place to point museums or other collaborators or you know, they need to be able to digest this and I don't think you get that I mean you don't from the marketplace, you know, and so I think it's been really useful in presenting CryptoPunks larger and I want more CryptoPunks and other folks to dig in. So I'm glad we're talking about it, but you know it's been. How did we get there? I mean, we really dug into it for I would say, a year. We really dug into it for I would say, years. I mean it's been. You know, we're refining it, refining it. We're still refining it and you know, I mean, one of my favorite things on Hub CryptoPunk's app is our kind of you know what is it Hero statement. You know, and I'm just going to read it because I think it's actually really impactful Part iconic NFT collection, part living art and technology experiment.
Speaker 1:What began as 10,000 pixel punks born on the blockchain is now an evolving collaboration with a community of creative builders and technologists, so it's just like it's evolving. And so you know, to go back in time and think about how did we get there I mean, so much work, so much thought be a pillar, and then we felt that experimentation and innovation should be a pillar. And that is kind of where we were heading with, you know, something like a pumpkin residence program. So now the question is is innovation and experimentation a pillar? I don't 100% know, but I'm trying to see with the community if it can and it should be. And what does that look like?
Speaker 2:let's zoom out a little bit or let's maybe reflect. We've talked like, I think, the questions a lot have. Naturally, you know, I think a lot of people are always I say a lot of people myself are always interested in like how people navigate adversity and change and, like you know, that has kind of been like a lot of where the questions have been framed or like how they've been asked. But maybe like switch gears a little bit, like what's your favorite part about your job? Like what is it that you most love about what you do?
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh, it's just my dream job.
Speaker 1:What's my favorite part?
Speaker 1:I have worked in like bridging the gap in, you know, between in art and technology for so long now, and I think crypto punks are such an important project that are so much bigger, even than Web3.
Speaker 1:I mean, coming from more of my art history background, I mean it literally solved a problem. The CryptoBunks project solved a problem that I knew and identified and wrote papers on when I was a video art, new media student, art history student, you know, when I was in college, and so it really represents everything that I love and care about and have committed my life to. And then throw in that I have also always been about connection and community and that was what originally drew me into music and just that power of community and collaborating with that community. And so the best part of my job is just that I'm working for a project that I with all of my heart believe in and I think is a part of history and that has a gravitas, and I just feel really lucky, like I'm doing. My favorite part of my job is I'm doing work that feels meaningful.
Speaker 2:I love that. I really yeah, that's incredible. I mean, it's they're like working in this industry comes like. We've obviously highlighted all the challenges, but there's got to be a reason that we're either insane or there of different things that you've done, especially yeah, especially with art and technology that allows you to do something and to like make a difference. I think that's a lot of like what we search for as humans, like in the work that we do Like I think that's one of the cool things.
Speaker 2:Like I know, hustle culture is like a virus that like I can't stand, you know, like when it comes to like solopreneur or whatever the case may be. But I think one of the main learnings from that and I think that's really cool about the time that we're in today is that I think people are just seeking meaning in what they do, um and like ring to like knowingly move the needle, even if it's just a little bit, or play a small part in the needle moving Um and it's it's really cool to hear you uh kind of go off on that. Um, I always love hearing people talk about what they like doing um, can I like? I hope that, like you know, sometimes, like when I do it. I think people think I'm fucking crazy. But yeah it's. I think it's part of the territory.
Speaker 1:I don't really understand people. I mean I I do, of course. I mean like that, that was a very privileged thing to say, but people that don't get to do or work or do what they love. I think we've all had. What would I do if I wasn't doing this? And I really have no idea. I've asked myself that question.
Speaker 2:I was literally going to make my next question. What would I do if it wasn't this.
Speaker 1:Okay, great Gosh, we're so in sync.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What would I do if it wasn't this?
Speaker 1:I mean, I really don't know. I mean there's I think I would. I mean I know that I'm still committed to art and technology and I could see myself moving into space of facilitating IRL experiences. I mean the presentation of digital art. How does digital art become more communal in the real world spaces? I mean, those are things that interest me. I also, just straight up, love small gatherings and you know, okay, I'll throw this your way because that is kind of the nature and spirit of this conversation.
Speaker 1:But my partner, he's a musician and he at one point was having a I don't know midlife crisis or identity crisis. He just wasn't sure if he would stay in music. And you know, people ask the question what would I do if you know? I knew I would succeed? You know, that's the typical question people ask. And he asked he flipped it on its head, which is very him and he approached it laterally and he said what would I do? Okay, there's a weird curse on me no matter what, I'm gonna fail, what would I do if I knew I would fail every day? But I had to work? I I'm like wow.
Speaker 1:And he came back to music and he was almost mad that that was the answer. You know he's like damn it. You know, because the music industry is a tough industry and I've asked myself that and I and I and and that's what I keep coming back to, you know, and I and I, I kind of just recently we did my portfolio and I couldn't. I come back. I come back to art and technology, I come back to community. I come back to RURL experiences.
Speaker 1:I don't know what exactly form that takes, but I know that I love, have always loved, bridging the gap between art and, you know, big tech and trying to find funding resource for that. And now I'm here kind of bridging the gap between kind of digital art and web three and crypto punks and the traditional art world. And you know, I just feel like I'll just continue to do that, like try to find these ways to bridge the cap and empower artists and connect the dots. And I just would do that if I knew I would fail, no matter what. You know, that's probably where I'd keep going.
Speaker 2:What a brilliant reframing of that question.
Speaker 1:I know he's so brilliant sometimes.
Speaker 2:Sometimes right Drives me crazy, helps it kind of. I think a couple friends have asked me something similar. You know, uh, like, say you were just destined to have this like horrible outcome, like how would you, how would you navigate? Um, yeah, like, how, like would you still believe and trust? And like, trust the process, like even if you knew the outcome was not going to be like, at least the immediate outcome wasn't going to be good, um, or if it wasn't going to change, uh, or if you had this hardship, or if you had whatever insert, whatever, so that's brilliant. I love that. I'm probably going to steal that, to be quite honest, steal it. I love asking this question. Speaking of stealing, it's from. It's slightly reframed, but it's one of my favorite questions that I have to ask Is in Web3, slightly reframed, uh, but it's one of my favorite questions that I I have to ask um, is in web three? What is the kindest thing someone has done to you?
Speaker 1:oh, wow, I love that question.
Speaker 1:So many kind gestures, um, I mean all the crypto, I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't know if all of them got together and did this, but I many of them got together and got me flowers sent to my mom's house on probably one of the hardest weeks of my life and that was really unexpected and really really sweet and meant a lot to me. Unexpected and really really sweet and meant a lot to me and that was one of the kindest things that has happened to me in Web3. You know, just like my community coming together and showing up and sending me flowers, which I love like meant so much and you know, yeah, that was one of the kindest things. I mean, I've also feel like Matt and John have been so, so kind to me and so generous and with their time, with their knowledge, with their insight, with my questions I mean I'm trying to think of even just a singular one thing that they've done but they've always been so kind and I really look up to them a lot and really appreciate the just generosity consistently that they've shown me with their time.
Speaker 2:I love that. Those are two phenomenal examples, yeah, and I think the first one, I like the mystery that you don't really know how many people were involved, but that it was just done and it doesn't really matter, I guess at the end of the day, but it's just the gesture, was. That's really incredible. Thank you for sharing that, by the way. Yeah, that definitely got me a little emotional, for sure, because it's like them.
Speaker 2:I think that happened, that they did that at my very old job. That happened with me once, like when my grandma or grandfather passed, like I came back to like an edible arrangements, like it was like something really nice. Um, till I come back to I definitely wasn't warranted, you know. Um, so really appreciate you sharing that. Um, well, this has been phenomenal. Uh, natalie, this I feel like we're kind of coming to coming to a natural close here, um, but we'd love, but would love, to maybe send us off in a direction on the through line of like, at worst possible scenario, leaving things neutral, best possible scenario, leaving things better in a positive way than you found it. Where do you want to see?
Speaker 1:punks in the next hundred years? Oh wow, that's a great question. I want to see punks. I just I want to see them in museums everywhere and recognized for what they are and I want them to be a part of. When I hear this is what I want, I'm able to synthesize it better, you know, because museums is obvious, right about community, about art, and they associate it so deeply with those pillars let's say that the way that you associate Nike with greatness or being great or the, you know, and I want that for CryptoPunks that they actually are something bigger than themselves and they represent values that are aligned with this core punk ethos of disruption and creativity. I just think that would be where I would want to see punks in 100 years.
Speaker 2:I love that. I love that. I won't yap outside of that and add anything, because I think that's perfect. So, Natalie, this has been incredible. Thank you, yeah, for giving me so much of your time. Both attempts to record here were completely my fault. We figured that out. I want to give you an opportunity Like, yeah, I had a blast like reviewing, yeah, your website. So like want to give you an opportunity to like is there anywhere? Like whether it's you or Punks, like where should people go to? Like learn more about yourself as well as Punks?
Speaker 1:Okay, well, let's start with Punks. Go to hubcryptobunksapp and dig in, because there's so much magic in there and photos and archival content. If you want to learn about me, I guess pop over to Twitter. Natalie Stone, that's who I am on Twitter. I love that, yeah.
Speaker 2:You have a fun username. I always try to type in Natalie because Twitter search is so broken and I always forget the U, but I love that. Like, try to type in natalie and crypt, because twitter search is so broken. Um, and I I always forget the u, um, but I, I love that yeah, I'm a little naughty sometimes, who knows? Absolutely love it. Well, it has been a treat. But, yeah, definitely do a little sign off and I hope you have a great rest of your day okay, bye.