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CURAT3D: A series of conversations with the people shaping the culture and technology of the new internet.
This series is produced by SHILLR -- the most trusted marketing, media & consulting firm in crypto.
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CURAT3D: Micol - Transforming Art with Decentralized Technology
In this episode we sit down with Micol, a trailblazer in the crypto art scene and former co-founder of Vertical Crypto Art.
We focus on the transformative impact of technology on the art world, particularly focusing on how decentralized systems, Micol shares her journey into the rule-breaking nature of crypto art that attracts visionaries and innovators. We also explore the challenges and benefits for artists and curators in this fast-paced, globally connected market, and the evolving role of digital art collectors and patrons. The conversation also delves into the differences between traditional and digital art ecosystems, and her vision of a more interactive, inclusive future for museums.
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X (Twitter): https://x.com/micolmicolmicol
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this technology enabled participants from all over the world to have access to a market and people which has never happened in the history of art or culture or technology before.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Curated, a series of conversations with the people shaping culture and technology of the new internet. This is a podcast series produced by Schiller, the most trusted marketing media and consulting firm in crypto. Before we jump in with today's guest, we want to make it clear that this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. I am your host, buna, and today I'm joined by Mikol, previous co-founder of Vertical Crypto Art and presently a curator at Fellowship Trust. Mikol is a true visionary in how technology can redefine art, as well as serve as a bridge between emerging artists to the broader world of digital media and the fine art community. Gm Mikol, how are you?
Speaker 1:GM, I'm good. Yeah, I'm good. How about you Good?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we were chatting a little bit offline but I'm doing well, got a nice cup of coffee and just excited to kick off my day. I know it's around afternoon for you, but for me it's kind of nice to have an interview kicked off right in the morning. It sets the tone for the day. So I hope you've had a good one so far and welcome.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Yeah, no, I had a great morning actually. I went for a run and now I'm yeah, I'm ready to have a nice chat, yeah totally Well, I'd love to, yeah, we'd love to, just maybe dive in.
Speaker 2:There's a. I always like, you know, everyone, the reason we get out of bed in the morning speaking of mornings is, you know, there's got to be a, there's got to be a. Why. So, um, I'd always. I just like to know for you, you know uh, cause you play in.
Speaker 1:You play in crypto, you play in art. So why crypto art? Um, good question, uh, the why is actually something that I think um keeps like changing and evolving. I've been, you've been kind of like playing really in crypto art, for it's going to become five years, which is quite a long time, if I think about it actually, and it's wild because it's gone so fast and, at the same time, so much has happened since I kind of started.
Speaker 1:Um, I think, initially, what, what got me really excited about, uh, crypto art and kind of like art on blockchain and the, the combination of like a decentralized technology and an ecosystem and culture, was this idea of being a little bit like underground like artists were resetting the tone of what art or the art world is and like reshaping uh rules according to what they wanted to, and, uh, I really found that fascinating, like it's something I kind of like thrive, let's say, even in my personal life, um, in like underground culture like I, I, you know, like music and raves, and I've always I've always like kind of like felt a bit of connection with things that go, you know, beyond what is the status quo and like normality and what people think it's, like, you know, normal and standard. And I just found it really, really interesting when I got into it, like when I discovered it, that, you know, artists were setting their own tone and like setting their own rules, and I was like, well, this is a real game changer. You know, like.
Speaker 1:It's a real opportunity for anyone really, not only artists and creators, uh, but you know somebody like me who is not fundamentally like an artist per se, um, to also kind of like shape and do and kind of like play by my own rules and um, and that's kind of and it's ultimately it's still really the why, uh, because I I think even now, uh, even if it obviously the space has become a lot bigger and a lot more populated and maybe even in certain ways, more standardized to a certain extent, um, there's still this kind of like frill of everything being so nascent and new that you are still able to shape and create and do things that you want in your way without any like set kind of like boundaries or set rules. Let's say, Totally.
Speaker 2:I love that answer and I think in my own way, I can very much relate to that as far as like, kind of being a little bit on the edge of everything and kind of not wanting to, whether it's not wanting to go with the status quo, or like looking beyond the status quo, or there's always been something that's fascinated me with kind of the edge cases, you know, the edge cases of the world, and that's really what made me fall in love and I think it's really interesting to hear, you know. And the thing that I thought of is, you know, I think that there's a few moments in history where, like, the rules can be rewritten, and that's, I think what I heard there is that it's just, it's an opportunity for artists, first and foremost, to rewrite the rules. But also, you know, if you look, if what I've been realizing on a on a bigger scale is that it's been allowing the entire world to rewrite the history of finance, you know, and what we can really do, uh, with a decentralized technology, and that you know, uh, it's really it's. It's kind of cumbersome to think about it on that scale because it just, quite frankly, it just makes my head hurt and art is easier to look at.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, um, but I think that that's very much. You know. I really loved hearing that because it it taps into kind of the essence of like, you know, even though I, even though, like, we're still incredibly um, like there have been places that have matured here and there have been places like the in spite of how crazy and wild this industry is like there have been levels of maturity from where we were in, like, let's say, you know, 2019, 2020, 2021, you know things like that. Um, so, yeah, it's sometimes it's frustrating to to to look at where we're still at. So, yeah, it's sometimes it's frustrating to look at where we're still at, but there has it's hard to argue that there hasn't been a lot of progress since then, you know.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:It's funny because sometimes I feel like it's kind of like a paradox of like maturing but also then still having like situations and like moments and things that happen that are so like completely like out of this world, where you're like, obviously the space is still so new and nascent because, like things, like you know, I don't know, mean coin mania that is happening in the last couple of days, like you know, know it's kind of interesting and and and I think, like you touched on something that is actually quite quite even more like interesting to me, which is the well, I think what crypto art kind of enabled as well is the participation of a lot of different players, whether it's artists, curators, collectors, galleries, like all sorts of kind of like different ecosystems to be part of a wider something and especially within the art world and I don't come from, like I haven't studied art, but I have been around the art world before crypto arts, let's say, and you know, coming from, that it is a very closed, very closed ecosystem and you know it still is.
Speaker 1:To be honest, you know the contemporary and traditional arts, uh like areas are very um in a way like elitist and kind of like, you know, stuck up and um, and I think, like what's been very exciting and interesting to me and kind of also why I also chose to do certain like projects and create certain ecosystems within Vertical was that this technology and the potential of this technology enabled participants from all over the world to have access, at least have access to a market and people, which has never happened in the history of art or culture or technology before. And that is like, if you think about it, it's quite groundbreaking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you think about it, it's quite groundbreaking and interesting because it allows and enables and creates ways in which people can interact through culture and through art with a variety of different practices, ways, languages, different practices, ways, languages Like it still blows my mind to be honest that I can like go on Twitter and literally I have people that I speak to from all over the world yeah, Like everywhere and I'm collecting, you know, art or curating art, or working with artists that maybe live in like Kazakhstan or Iran or the tiniest like island in Indonesia, Like it's. It's wild and exciting at the same time.
Speaker 2:It really. Yeah, I mean, you touch on a great point because, like one of my, you know, like I've met so many friends in so in so many different time zones that, like I, some of them, I didn't even see their face until after we had spent a lot of time hanging out together on Twitter or on a Twitter space or in a pod or whatever the case may be, over the phone. Um, yeah, so I think you touched on something really really important in in the. I guess the plugging into a global market, uh, in comparison to the more traditional art world. I guess the plugging into a global market in comparison to the more traditional art world. Now I have a question for you as someone who was involved in the arts and culture before you came over here and then now you've spent a lot of time not only participating but building here and would love to maybe get into vertical crypto art here in just a moment. But one thing that I've noticed as the space has matured is, you know, while artists I've seen some artists uh almost look at being plugged into a global market as becoming a bit overwhelming, you know, and becoming a bit like, oh my god, you know, like I wish I didn't have access to this.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you're like wanting to just make art or wanting to, you know, have uh, someone be their marketer, or like like, wow, maybe handling all of this is like a lot more than I really anticipated, um, and I'm running out of bandwidth, um, so I, I look at, I look, I see, cause I see both sides, like I see, you know, the, the, the, the blank canvas that a lot of artists can create, not only, you know, with their work, but just on a conceptual basis with community.
Speaker 2:It unlocks the doors to a whole new level of access to people. But sometimes, you know, maybe it's just, you know, some of the short-term pain during parts of the market. But how have you seen, at least with the artists that you've, you know, that you've been supporting, that you've helped or that you've maybe shepherded or take, you know, kind of helped, uh, evolve, you know, are those some of the same concerns or what? I guess? What are some of the main concerns from your perspective as far as being, you know, plugged into this global community? What are some of the more overwhelming aspects?
Speaker 1:Let's open the Pandora box. So many concerns, um, it's, it's hard, because I feel like, um, there's quite like I, I'm I've become quite vocal about this actually but like, especially especially after you, you know not kind of like representing a company anymore, which, in many ways, I feel like you know it also allows me to kind of like be a bit more vocal about what I actually think but um it's.
Speaker 1:It's kind of it's not an easy space to navigate from all sides, like it's not just the artists, actually, that find it hard, it's even like the galleries and the curators and the collectors as well. But mostly I think, um, what is like very, I think what is like very overwhelming, like let's talk about it from an artist's perspective, at least in my opinion, and then I can go on. What was overwhelming for me, like as a curator and a gallerist, it's that you can basically like do anything and everything At the same time. You're faced with a continuous and constant like feedback loop that never stops. So every single move, every single act, every single work, every single aspect of your like practice is, in a way, scrutinized, because as soon as you put it on the blockchain, obviously you know it becomes, it's on a decentralized public ledger, so it becomes visible and usually it's on sale as well, and you have this especially for artists. You have this immediate like constant like feedback, which you know, which it either sells or not, and if it doesn't, then obviously it's a really bad work, which is not the case.
Speaker 1:We have been accustomed in this space to think about whether something is good or bad in a very, very, very short timeframe, yeah, and with, like, a very immediate feedback loop. And this, I think, creates a lot of pressure on artists. And actually the same pressure, in a different way, is translated to curators and galleries, because when you're putting up a show, when you're working with anyone, you know you obviously want it to do the best it can, because you want the artists to be happy, because you want your business to do well, because you want people to see that you are doing a good job, and when that doesn't happen, immediately it's like a rollercoaster. Immediately it's like it's like a roller coaster. You know, you're, you're. I felt I was on a constant ride, like up and down, up and down, and there's this like overarching sense of like am I doing enough? Am I doing well? Is this good enough? Is this, you know, is this actually shaping or moving or changing or kind of like in certain ways helping the ecosystem as well? And it's draining you know, and exhausting.
Speaker 1:And I think on top of that there is also kind of a bigger problem, which is the way that curators and galleries have been perceived for the longest time within the contemporary art world and I think, like translated into crypto art of this almost like bad middleman or like useless middleman. You know it's somebody who's just trying to take money from you or take a cut and we don't want that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I think that has in many ways ruined, you know, the way that artists and curators and galleries can actually collaborate and work together in really meaningful and powerful ways. And another problem.
Speaker 2:I'll just go full in yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, I'm here for it.
Speaker 1:Artists have so much choice for anything, for platforms, for you know, ways that they can do things, for drops that they can do, for ways in which they can do drops, and it's, on the one side, very exciting but on the other hand, very confusing Sure, yeah, for anyone. So when I think, for example, or when I speak to like trad art collectors or just people that are not actively participating in the space, they're very overwhelmed, and rightly so, because it is a decentralized ecosystem. We face the problems of it being a decentralized ecosystem and artists are going from one thing to another with sometimes not maybe such a clear direction which confuses them, confuses us, confuses collector, and it kind of creates this general like mess, which I think is a little bit what the current status of the art space is right now, if I have to like view it from my perspective it's I mean, from even conversations that I'm having with a lot of artists there's a lot of confusion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you touched on a lot of great points there and it's going to be hard to just to pick one at a time to go down the rabbit hole. I mean, you and I'm glad you touched on the opposite side of the coin and I think it's just confusing. And I think the most interesting I think I guess if I could pinpoint a lot of the confusion is, you know, I don't think we were really designed for these quick feedback loops Like the feedback loop is insane, you know, and the feedback loop as technology, just as a whole, like if you want to even like take out the niche industry that we're in, you know the feedback loop as technology has grown has gotten exponentially faster and it's almost exponentially overwhelming at times to be able to deal with it and process it and make sure that you're like actually understanding what's happening, and sometimes you just don't have at least for me, I don't have the time to understand everything that's happening all the time. So you touched on some great points and it and it makes sense like why artists sometimes can maybe go in like a very different direction and not and maybe be a little lost or maybe you know like not know like where to say, meant their work, or like what platform? Or, like, you know, wanting to have a cohesive, you know, visual language, but not wanting to be trapped into you know a certain uh style, um, and be boxed into like, hey, this is the token artist for this type of work. You know, um, that's at least some of the feedback that I've gotten that specifically that last part, um, but specifically, you know, I'm glad that you brought up the point of of gallerists and people that are wanting to maybe participate but maybe just don't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just hard to keep up with. Like, how do you, how do you trust what platform is right? Like, how do you? You know there's there's levels of trust in an artist as well, and I think we saw that, um, especially, if I'm being honest, especially during, like the open edition season, uh, last year. You know that definitely left like a really bad taste, uh, I know in my mouth was with the way that happened, um, and I know with a lot of other people.
Speaker 2:And so how do you establish, you know, uh, trust on both ends? And how do you? What's this? What's this like little fine line balance between, like, artists having complete freedom to do what they want but also having, you know, uh, also kind of having collectors be able to um and it's not control is not the right word, but just kind of have some like ways to like I don't know trust what's happening, you know, without, without spending all of their waking time here, cause I think that that's the that that's the issue for me. Is that, like the people who get it like we live and breathe this 24 hours a day, is that like the people who get it like we live and breathe this 24 hours a day, like people who have lives outside of this, like you can't, it's hard to keep up, and if you don't, if you're not here all day on Twitter 16 hours a day, you miss it and you can feel left out. Yeah, I guess is what I'm getting at there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's totally and it's one of the reasons why I feel like there's such a disconnect between kind of like, let's say, the outside world and the inside world that we're in, and I feel like that's wrong to a certain extent.
Speaker 1:You know, like you shouldn't really feel like you're missing out if you spend a couple of days away and actually like I've, you know, because I've stepped back from, like, my position as a CEO, like I had stepped away for even more than a couple of days, and it's interesting because it actually like allowed me yeah, of course I might've missed things, but like it allowed me to just like see things from a very different like perspective, you know, and like with a very different like angle, and also like without this like rush. You know I used to. Obviously, you know, when you're building a business and I'm sure you you can relate to that as well with schiller like you really feel like if you're not there all the time, you are going to miss something that is truly important for whatever it is that you're doing, and I feel like to some extent, is what everyone feels, like artists connect.
Speaker 1:Anyone, anyone who's participating in the space feels that, but ultimately I don't actually think that's true and um, and, and I think it, it kind of hurts us all to think that way, especially artists, you know. I think some of the struggles that I hear are you know, I cannot focus on my practice because I'm constantly surrounded by, you know, the inputs and outputs of Twitter or of social media, or of what I should be doing or what I should be tweeting or what I should be talking about. And at the same time, when artists are focusing on their practice and kind of not, you know, participating in maybe like a thousand different Twitter spaces, they're being like pointed the finger at saying, oh, but he's not, you know, he's not an active participant in this space. Like it's very toxic. You know, to a certain extent I don't want to be like all too much of a downer, but it is a very toxic ecosystem to certain levels and I think you know, collectively, like we should probably try to like move away a little bit, like I think, especially within, I'm very like active and kind of like more present within, like the art kind of Twitter ecosystem and I feel like there's such a divide, like a divide and a difference between, like the crypto trading meme, coin degens way in which you know they approach the ecosystem, and then the way that actually, like artists and a lot of like really thoughtful and engaging and interested collectors are approaching the space.
Speaker 1:And I'm more, more and more seeing this divide as time goes on and as the space grows, which I think is very good and very healthy, because one thing is trading coins and, you know, trying to make money which, by the way, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that and actually it's great and the other is kind of collecting art and engaging with artists who, by the way, are human beings, beings and you know, building, maybe potentially like collections that will stand the test of time, that might go into museums that might become very, might have an investment thesis behind them, you know, so on and so forth, and it's just, I think, a different approach and should be differentiated because it's not the same.
Speaker 2:It's absolutely not the same. You're very right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's not and there's. Yeah, you bring up some great points there, because that at times, or at least one one thing, that so one thing that I noticed and I'm gonna be very like, like I think I'm gonna tweet this soon, but this, this podcast, won't be out for a couple weeks, but I'll say it here as well.
Speaker 2:I also think that I see a lot of takes on the timeline, specifically in whether it's on the collector side or the artist side. I see it just in the art community in general A lot of kind of like looking down on meme culture and like meme coins and like the financial side of crypto, like, like, oh, like, you know, I'm just creating this or like I'm just like buying art while you're just degenerately gambling, and it's like I, I, I see the the like, the argument, but at the same time, it's like it, while there are different verticals within this new industry that we're playing in, or this new technology that we're playing in, like it's all part of the culture at the end of the day. You know, um and I just look at that and that's one of the things that I just I find a little bit bothersome, at least for my opinion, cause it's like you know not, we're all here to. You know, obviously we have to make money or we don't. You know, obviously we have to make money or we don't. You know we don't eat, and obviously a lot of us see the financial opportunity to make a lot more money than the traditional system.
Speaker 2:As I mentioned earlier, it's not only a way to rethink art and collecting and digital objects, but it's an entirely new way to rethink finance and kind of get ahead of the current system that, quite frankly, is really hard to understand. You know, ironically enough, that crypto is easier to understand in a very strange, convoluted way, but I just noticed that a lot of like opposing and it's sometimes people are at each other starts with that, and there are artists that I've noticed that have started to like lean into the opposite side of finance. You know, like the side of finance or the side of meme coins or the side of you know, like just just the tech in general. You know like the side of finance, um, or the side of meme coins or the side of you know, like just just the tech in general. You know, um, and I've been noticing it like. That to me is like it's so comfy, you know Cause. It's like, oh cool. They're like playing with every part of the space. They're exploring everything that this space has to offer and, like you can you can know this.
Speaker 2:Being a startup founder like, uh, you have your job description and then you have like the 20 other things that are not part of your job description but you need to do because you're the one to do it, and I look at that kind of as a way of like how this space functions. It's like if we're still early to this thing, and like you come with your job description, you come with your talent, you come with your skillset, but, like I think it's also so important to like really at least make a conceded effort to like try to learn about, maybe, where some of the people that are buying the arts money comes from. You know Cause a lot. You know what I mean. So, yeah, I just wanted to like touch on that, cause it's something that like it's very like. It's a moment in time that I'm currently experiencing that feeling right, totally.
Speaker 1:Actually, you bring up an interesting point, because there's also a very unique kind of movement that has happened, which is not just artists being able to participate in the art ecosystem, but also new collectors Sure yep, also new collectors like new collectors, being able to participate in collecting art and maybe even learning how to love art, which is probably something that they have not been exposed to before, and that is like probably one of the most exciting, I think, for me and I've spoken about this quite a bit before as well, like, even tweeted about this like it's probably one of the most exciting parts of this ecosystem that we have new, newly like created collectors, let's say, that have learned how to appreciate art and have made a like, a taste for themselves within this ecosystem, and so you know, wherever it is that they're making their money, you know. Great like, good for them, you know, and if it's trading meme coins, you know, let's have it.
Speaker 1:Like it's. I don't see it as a kind of like, looking down on you know, the, the, let's say, the, the, the trading or the trader. I actually see it as as an opportunity, and I think I tweeted about this last, uh, last week, like this if people are, you know, making money in this moment in time, whether it's through, you know, trading, meme coins or flipping NFTs or whatever, what we've seen in the past is that a lot of that liquidity has actually then transferred and translated into some not everyone, because not everyone would like to collect art but some have then really poured a lot of that liquidity and a lot of that money and a lot of that love as well into supporting artists. I think, like Deez is a great example of this and many more of that nature as well, and I think that's even more exciting to kind of like learn how and see and admire um collectors, new collectors create themselves within the space and support, you know, culture and also like navigate their taste, uh, through ecosystem as well, which is, I don't know.
Speaker 1:To me it's like it is is really exciting, like I work quite a bit with, like or obviously talk, but also like work, even recently with some collectors on a one-to-one basis, and it's just very interesting to especially, like you know, trad art collector, but mostly a lot of like, natively, like digital art collectors, and it's just really like cool and exciting to see how a lot of them are so passionate about what they're doing and how they're building and who they're supporting.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, I don't know, I feel like a lot of the times, maybe even us and I'm probably like I can blame myself as well for it, you know think a lot about how can we get, like, the trad art collectors in or how can we get the contemporary art roles, and I feel like we have so much opportunity as well, just where we are, to even like acknowledge the people who are here and like bring them in as well within the art ecosystem Because, for example, like I've sometimes I go around like Twitter spaces that have nothing to do with art and are just, you know, mainly about trading and so on. I like to, you know, be around those ecosystems just to know what's going on.
Speaker 1:And I've spoken to a lot of these people, even like IRL, and in the same way that they feel like that, we feel you know, you know, oh, you know, they're just trading meme coins. They feel like, oh, you know, these people are doing art and like I don't really understand it and I don't really know how to approach it you know, so it's kind of funny that it. It's almost like yeah the.
Speaker 1:You know, the coin flips in a way and it's like we feel like the trad art is not accepting us and maybe in the same way, like that community feels like they don't know how to get into, like the art world on blockchain, totally.
Speaker 2:Totally so. Let me ask you a question here. This is a hypothetical or, you know it may it may change as time goes on, but do we need, in your opinion, um, do we really need to focus our time on onboarding new trad art collectors or spend more time on people that are just naturally in the ecosystem, kind of like converting you know, maybe not converting, but it's it, but it's a dirty word that I still feel like gross about from, like the traditional business world, but you know what I'm talking about. Like should we feel like like when it comes to like where we spend our time, because time is the most valuable resource we have.
Speaker 2:You know, is it because there's this barrier where, like you know, when people already understand digital money, it, there's this barrier where, like you know, when people already understand digital money, it's easier to understand digital objects? Like it's easier to understand, like you know, art, for example, or NFTs, but like that, that chasm to like from from fiat to digital currency, is like a pretty big one. But the chasm from digital money to digital art or digital ownership, like, to me it's a smaller bridge to cross. So I'd love to maybe know, like you know, I know we've talked about, and you've spent a lot of time, even prior to this, working in the, in the tried art world and being a curator and being an art dealer. You know, I guess, just for you personally, you know is it is it more fruitful to spend your time focusing on on the, the bigger world, or continuously maybe just fostering what we have, and then the people will figure it out? I guess is the hypothetical I have for you.
Speaker 2:Big question and good question.
Speaker 1:I think about this a lot myself, to be honest, so I don't know if I have a yes or no answer but I have kind of like a reasoning for growth.
Speaker 1:so with the, let's say, natively kind of like crypto people, um, the gap or like the challenge is making them understand that art is not just like, it's not. Art is not a mean coin and art is not a flip or it can be a flip, but the beauty of art is also like the cultural relevance that it will have in time and the support that you can give to artists in kind of like collecting work. So I think that is the biggest challenge. So when I speak to some of these more natively kind of like crypto traders, they immediately want to know what is the potential flip or money that they can make. Got it Right, and I think that's the challenge coming to try and educate them in that way.
Speaker 1:On the other side, with like, more contemporary art and trad art collectors, on the other side, with more contemporary art and trad art collectors, the challenge is making them understand the value of digital assets itself. Like why should it be a digital asset? Why is this important? Why should I be collecting in this way? Because they already know about everything else. They already, you know, support the arts in different ways, but they're just kind of like more focused on understanding why the technology parts and why is it important for me? So in a way, it's both two.
Speaker 1:the two are very challenging either either way um, I think, like probably for for the way that I, you know kind of, let's say, operate or like my, what I am interested in.
Speaker 1:I really love to like see when somebody that is maybe coming from the crypto trading world like falls in love with art, like I think it's just beautiful yeah and I have a lot of, like you know, collector friends that you know have done exactly that, like recently in november, one of the the last exhibition we did with Vertical was with a collector named Blockbird on Twitter, and it was done together. So we were showing some of his collection and then showing some new works and I feel like he has an incredible collection, first of all and he doesn't come from art at all like he was. You know he he's like an investor, a trader, you know like flipped a lot of nfts back in 2021, made, you know, substantial, like capital, and then kind of fell through the art blocks a rabbit hole, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and just you know, became so passionate about the arts and obviously you know has incredible taste as well, and you know, working together with him in an exhibition, you know, where somebody can really see even from his perspective because obviously he'd never done like a physical, irl exhibition what it means to you know. Pour your heart and love in creating like an ecosystem and a space and a place for artists to be happy with how their work is being presented, but also for people like just random people, you know, guests and audiences to appreciate the work as well, was really, really unique and I loved it. I loved that experience and I'd love to do more of that, and so maybe for me, like, what kind of fires me up is more getting you know the crypto traders, like into art, rather than the other way, rather than you know the trad art. But yeah, I haven't given you like an answer, I just said what for me is maybe more interesting.
Speaker 2:And that's. There was no right or wrong way to answer that. I mean, it's that was a, like I said, a hypothetical, and I'm glad you, I'm glad you went there, cause it's it's. I often find myself with that dilemma of you know, if art history is open again, you know, like, if we're just going to say that, um, cause I think it is right now, um, it's pretty easy to to find reasons to support that, um, it's like you know, while there.
Speaker 2:I look at this from two sides because, like, on one hand, we need more people, but on the other hand, I think that there is so much, even though we have a smaller subset of people here. Uh, you know, you have people who are like, at least while we're early. You know, like I should, I should preference that at least while this technology has not been widely adopted it's. You know, it's kind of like when I talk to my friends about it, that just don't get it early, not necessarily that don't get it, but don't have an interest to get it Like I just don't spend my time with it. You know, like I'm just like it's. It's something that, like, if, like, I just don't spend my time with it, you know, like I'm just like it's. It's something that like, if you're not at least a my, if you don't have like at least a minutia of curiosity, like I'm not going to spend my time doing this because I could be spending my time kind of like engaging with other people and the way you were talking about and I love that story and I like literally pulled I can't believe I wasn't following it. He was following me and I just like pulled up his gallery page and, like he is, he has got quite, yeah, quite, the collection, um, yeah, yeah, a lot of my favorite artists here, uh, and it's really really, really cool to see, and I'm glad that like that's like super engaging.
Speaker 2:It's cool to hear that story from someone who's like deeply involved, uh, in everything that you've been involved in. Um, kind of hear that Because, when you zoom out, on one hand, crypto is so ridiculous that I couldn't not pay attention to it after a time. And there's parts of me that like why would we pander to people that are trying to pander us to the real world, when this is the farthest thing from it? And there's a reason why this is different and we're not trying to make this like everything else. Uh, you know. So it's like there's one hand where, like, you need to cater to some of the people, to onboard them a little bit, but on the other hand, it's kind of fun to just be absolutely absurd and like watch people figure it out, you know, and like it's, there's a lot of fun in that, um, and I don't know.
Speaker 2:So I just wanted to to comment on that because it's a really cool story and I'm happy that you were able to have that experience with Blackbird and I love that. So I guess I want to move forward here a little bit. There's a tweet that you put out the other day that really got me thinking and I'd love to just maybe just chat this through on an open discussion. What is the? You know, and I'd love to just maybe just chat this through on an open discussion, like what is the difference for you between an art patron and an art collector? You tweeted it yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:I did definitely. I don't think that was appreciated very much oh, it was by me, for sure.
Speaker 2:That's why. That's why I'm bringing it up, yeah because I very much, I very much resonate with it so the thing is like there's for me it's like quite interesting to see.
Speaker 1:You know it's. It's actually. First of all, I should say that like it's very exciting to see that funds are popping up which are focused on collecting digital arts, like Like that is amazing.
Speaker 1:first of all, and it gives a very strong signal to you know other more financial vehicles, let's say financially focused vehicles that this is a worthwhile investment, which obviously is a great thing for the space and for the artists and for everyone.
Speaker 1:So, like you know, want to like make sure that that is super clear and I absolutely believe that. But at the same time, I do think that there is a little bit of like misunderstanding or just misjudgment of what it means to be a patron of the arts, which doesn't necessarily mean that you are actually investing or like putting money behind someone or something and the difference between you know, I think an investment fund and a patron is, and some can be both, but I think that the definition is that an investment fund is investing with the kind of mission and goal to then have an ROI on their collected works and assets to be able to resell them in the future, which is great, perfect. A patron doesn't necessarily have that angle. The way that patrons think and operate is with usually the sole purpose, to be a almost like a kind of like a guidance and and and a supporter and a. Um, how can I say like a, a yeah, like a supporter of a specific artist or a specific body of work, or you know, a practice.
Speaker 2:Kind of like evangelizing it.
Speaker 1:Exactly, exactly, and they really, like they don't just collect, they become almost like an extension of, you know, the artist itself. Like I know of patrons that work very closely with artists mostly in the contemporary art world, not really and some as well, like within this ecosystem, who become, like, you know, almost like it becomes a partnership and a friendship in many ways and they advise them, they talk to them, they do exhibitions together. They, you know, have a, a relationship that helps the artist mature in their practice and they are supporting that in the process. Um, and and I think you know, for example, like another collector which I I believe uh does this to a certain extent, who is in our ecosystem, is Didi.
Speaker 1:He's on on Twitter and I think he's also incredible collector, amazing collection, but I've, you know, I've seen him kind of navigate and the way that he um, just just the respect and like the way that he has established like friendships and partnerships with a lot of artists is, I think, like uh, an example uh of someone who can, you know, maybe be considered like a patron of the arts within our space and some who I would probably like point to if somebody would have to ask me who is somebody that's doing that Gotcha, and I think it's important to like realize that there is a difference and we don't have enough patronage in the space at all and I think that's also why, you know, artists struggle because everything is always for sale and they always need to sell something. Like you know, some patrons also just support artists and maybe, like doing an installation without having any you know financial outcome out of it you know, you know financial outcome out of it.
Speaker 1:You know Um, and and obviously like I'm not saying that everybody should do this, like absolutely not Um I think it just it's just important to like realize that when you talk about patronage, yeah, you should know what what that actually like means, and I think it's definitely something that yeah, we're missing a little bit, yeah, yeah, I mean, and there's a.
Speaker 2:I'm glad you, yeah, thanks for answering that. It's a big question and it's something that it can easily get misconstrued because on, and I guess I'm sure like the definition over time has like probably changed. You know, like in the beginning, I think there was a lot of like before this and like centuries ago, there's a lot of art, more art patronage than collecting Um, or maybe that's just what we read in history books, so that was more well-documented Um, and we didn't really get as much insight, um, into just kind of the, the people who maybe just supported the work or like flipped the work or whatever the case may be, financially, and I like that. And I think that I just want to riff on this a little bit because I do this with a few. There's a few artists that, like I just, yeah, have a.
Speaker 2:I just look at their work and I'm like how the fuck are you not like way more celebrated than you are, you know? And it's like, oh my God, um and uh, it's, it's just while. I haven't done exhibitions with them yet, but it's, it's, it's more of like um, it's just more of like a making myself available and like, uh, and and and, being a sounding board or, at the very least, just consistently commenting and quote, tweeting and retweeting their work. Uh, you know, because I believe in it that much, you know, um, and I think that can also be, uh, that like can also be true, um, that can also be like a definition of like, of that patron, um, patronage yeah, absolutely, and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're um, that you should, you know, be like collecting the work.
Speaker 1:You know, like patronage can even be. You know, spending two hours on the phone with with an artist and talking about what they want to do next, or giving them, you know, support in that way, like that is also like patronage to a certain extent, which you know, I think, like we tend to associate so much of everything that we do with a transaction because it is literally in our face all the time. Like the blockchain, I think, brings this forward in a very kind of like transparent and brutal way, which, on the one hand, is great, but, on the other hand, of course, it has its, you know, its downfalls and the yeah, this kind of like transactional, like way of behaving between like two parties or two people. Uh, I think sometimes we forget that, like it doesn't always have to be like that.
Speaker 2:There's that doesn't always have to be a transaction, like a support and, uh, a caring can also happen without money being involved, right, you know right, and it's, and it's hard because, like how and this, I think it just goes back to like a life lesson of like understanding people, um, and understanding how people function and how you know, uh, interests work in the psychology behind, just yeah, any anything around a relationship. It's. I think it boils down to that because there's, on one hand like I don't respond to a lot of dms because it feels so charged that there's an ask behind what they're, what they're reaching out by. Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2:And then there's and and, on the other hand, maybe an artist is like early in their career and they just don't know how to like not do that and like. I think there was a period of my life where I just didn't know how to like be a human and, without expecting something in return or like having it, having a specific outcome, likes be behind what I was asking, um, and it's hard, like that's, that's like at least the. The challenge that I run up against is that and I have a few friends that really understand that and there's a couple artists that even aren't like. They didn't start off as like the great, like we didn't. It was very, it was very much like a scarce, you know, uh, not scarce, but like it was minimal contact. But then, over time, you know, one of us would take like it was minimal contact, but then, over time, you know, one of us would take like a leap of faith and say like, hey, like I don't want. I don't want you to take this like in any way, shape or form. This is just. If you're open to feedback, I'm down to give it, but please, at the end of the day, it's your own decision.
Speaker 2:You know, type of type of type of thing, and I think that it's it's really hard to do that with people and not Most people are really bad at that. I guess I would say it's easy to not be good at it. It's really hard to not put that effort in that's backwards. It's a hard goal to achieve, is what I'm trying to say. I only can have it with a few people because it's just like man, we all don't want to get screwed. We're all trying to like figure this out. We don't know what the fuck we're doing. You know, no one does, and if they do, they're lying, you know.
Speaker 2:So it's a great conversation and I'm happy that, like we're here, and so one thing I maybe want to change directions on and zoom out a little bit is you know, I know you. Just you recently left as the CEO of Vertical Crypto Art, you know, and maybe, without like, without getting too specific or sharing what you want to share, I guess would love to maybe know, number one what was one of your greatest accomplishments there, or what is something that you're most proud of after you left? And also, maybe, just like what you were, like what you're, what you're spending, your greatest accomplishments there or what is something that you're most proud of after you left, and also maybe just like what you were, like what you're spending your time on now. Would love to know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow. Well, my biggest accomplishment honestly like, without kind of like patting myself too much on the back, was everything we built in like four and a half years, I think, like from the residency program, which truly to this day, I don't think there has been anything of that sorts within the space that has helped so many artists kind of navigate and build a base for their like practice and knowledge within the crypto art ecosystem. And I think, probably, you know, I to this day, I still get like a lot of messages of artists that I've been part of the residency, that um that you know worked, uh, that I worked with and collaborated with, and that are extremely like grateful and thankful for everything that we provided absolutely for free, with no, like you know, transactional interest whatsoever, um, and I think that that is that just like makes my heart smile, to be honest, um, and I think that that is that just like makes my heart smile, to be honest, um, and I'm very, very, very proud of that work. But also, like, just in general, like I think we we built a base um for supporting, like the digital arts ecosystem in an inclusive, um interesting, nuanced um way. That was is aimed at showing you know what is, what is the talent out there and how important this moment in time is and how important the prospect of this ecosystem being global and including a lot of this. You know globality I don't know if you can say that but like this kind of like international aspect of you know, the decentralized art ecosystem into the exhibitions that we were doing.
Speaker 1:I think it was always a very much a labor of love in every single way. You know, we were not VC backed and I think that probably helped in many ways to see it, to see things this way, and so, honestly, I'm proud of everything. I'm proud of the residency, I'm proud of what we did with Proof of People, which I think was an event that brought together so many aspects of like digital culture in a very fun, engaging, inclusive, immersive, interesting, interactive way that allowed a lot of people to meet each other for the first time. That you know I don't want to be like super, like cheesy, but I am really proud of it and I would do everything, like you know, a thousand times again in exactly the same way.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 1:And yeah, and you know, that's, that's, I think, what, what I can say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say it's a huge and that was a question that teed you up to be a little corny and cheesy. So you know that's my fault if you felt that.
Speaker 2:Yeah that was definitely on me for doing that. That was the whole purpose of that question, because I think it's really easy. You know, some of the best founders don't toot their own horn and like. It's like a great way to like not, you know, like, compliments, compliments and uh, insults go down the same pipe. You know, uh, they go down the same drain, um, and so it's, it's real easy to like.
Speaker 2:You know be fearful of praise and accomplishment, but I think there's a, there's a bit of ego involved. That I know, at least with me personally, it's hard to like acknowledge and accept some of the things that you know I have done or that we have done. So, uh, I like to like challenge people cause, like, some of my favorite people are just like way too fucking humble, um, and I, I try to, I try to give them a, an excuse to, or or a space to to not do that for a moment. Um, do that for a moment. Um, cause I don't think it's. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, on one hand, it's admirable, but it's easy to like, not, it's easy to overlook, you know, cause we do so much and it moves so fast, uh, and it's really hard to do so, um, yeah, uh, yeah, Thanks for it, thanks for doing that, um, and would love to maybe know, like right now, how are you, you know, now that you've, you know, now that you've, you know, you've, you've parted ways, kind of, how are?
Speaker 1:you spending your time today and maybe what's what's next.
Speaker 1:So right now I definitely took a little bit of a breather afterwards and right now what I'm doing is focusing on more of like my let's say, like freelance, kind of like my own territorial practice.
Speaker 1:So working with different projects, different galleries, different collectors in either, you know, advising them or curating for different ecosystems, and also working a little bit more closely with, like certain artists on again like this of like, let's say, curator bar, you know, support type of way. Um, and taking yeah, just taking, like I think for the foreseeable future, that will probably be me for a while. Um, it allows me to also like understand where the space is at and what is needed as well. And I'm not going to lie, I think I am very much an entrepreneurial soul at heart and I do miss the adrenaline and the ups and downs of running your own business. So I do foresee, probably in my future, to do something again within the space, within, you know, like digital art, of course, but for now, taking like time to work more independently and, you know, for others and with others, rather than having something on my own.
Speaker 2:I love that. I feel like there's no, you know, life goes in a lot of different directions and there's moments where we go super hard and there's moments where we probably take, you know, take our foot off the gas for a little bit and do a little, do a little relaxing or do something that's maybe not as intense, and I think you owe that to yourself and I'm really happy you're doing that because, yeah, this face can, like, this face is brutal and can chew you up and spit you out real fast, and it's yeah, it's really hard to stay on top of your P's and Q's here. So I just wanted to say, from, like my perspective, it's really cool to see, like, what you've built the voice that you have here. I, to see, like what you've built the voice that you have here.
Speaker 2:I think that I one thing I'm really excited about um and this definitely. You know, there's a lot of people that have been here for X number of years and maybe been through a cycle, maybe two, or the people that have gone through their first cycle and now starting to speak up a little bit more um, which I'm really happy about, and I noticed yourself, like you've been very vocal um around a lot of different various issues in the space and, um, as someone who's followed you for followed you for a very short period of time, you know, I very much appreciate that, um, and I think that's it's it's great to see people finally doing that a little bit more.
Speaker 1:You know, um you know what I think was kind of um. I remember I was on a Schiller space actually I think it was like a Friday. You know, one of the vibes, the kind of vibe, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. And like we were chatting I don't know if you remember like you were on there as well and like there was Deez on there and I was just saying like how I felt like I didn't really do a lot of hot takes and like are just like you know what I remember, let's do it, you know, and I tell you, I think I I took that under um.
Speaker 1:You know, like I took that uh, really like closely and I was like, yeah, I think I should like start being a little bit more vocal of what I think and I'm actually, like you know, uh, enjoying it. I think people relate to it as well. Like you know, we I feel like it's not, like you know know, a hot take for farming engagement, just like my thoughts, and I've realized that it actually, yeah, just like you know, not everybody relates to them and even if they don't like, it's nice to have, you know, this kind of like feedback, of conversation, like actual thoughtful conversation that you can, that you can engage with people online, which I think is, you know, ultimately also what, what makes you know Twitter kind of like fun, is when you're actually engaging in meaningful conversations or somebody is making you think about something in a different way that you, you know, you thought about yourself or you expected to think about it. So, yeah, I'm enjoying that myself, yeah, and so I need to thank you guys for that.
Speaker 2:That's. I remember that space vividly and I I've I've been kind of taking that approach at times, but not to the extent that I, that I'd probably like to. But no, I, I really appreciate you calling that out, cause that was a great space and and Deez is one of the best. Uh, yeah, one of my, one of my favorite people, and I'm glad that, I'm glad you're doing it, because I and I've chatted with you, know a few of my other friends and like when I, when I bounce like a what I think is a hot take off of them, they're like it's not that hot, they're like it's just, it's just honest, like it's not, it's not like even that spicy.
Speaker 2:And I think it's so easy at times to like it. We're so disincentivized to like share our honest opinion or like. I feel like there's this like weird part of the mind that says, like well, if I come off, what if I come off this way? You know what if I come off that way? But like most, like most of the time, like the thoughts are pretty like well thought out and balanced and there's a reason why I'm wanting to say something, and it's not because it's just to stir the pot, it's not because, like it's just an observation, multiple observations that I've seen in my reaction to those observations is usually what that is. So have you, is that kind of the experience that you've had?
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And also, like you know, I think we're conditioned to be like, oh, if I say something that I'm actually thinking, or like it's honest and it's a hot take. But yeah, I totally agree, like it's, it's not really, it's just, like you know, a sincere thought. Um and and and and, and it's interesting that, like we, we, because everything like we go in flows, especially with with Twitter, you know, we tend to follow like these, like flows of, like, oh, it's a hot take, or like now I need to say this and I don't know like I feel, like sometimes, like you end up like conditioning yourself to thinking that you should be tweeting something because like somebody else is tweeting that, or like because the meta is that, the meta is is that, and slowly you kind of like I, I realized that sometimes I was like, oh, I don't really know what to tweet, because I wasn't really like just being myself, you know. And now it's like much more, just yeah, just kind of like tweeting whatever I think about really at any given point.
Speaker 2:I think that's the way.
Speaker 2:Like I I, I think that I think that's the way, like, I think I think it's the way for sure. So, um, thank you for leading the way on that and I want to leave as we wrap up here. I want to leave you with one kind of open-ended question, something that I've thought about a lot, and at least not thought about a lot, but thought a lot about recently. I should put that caveat there Is in the next. Let's just say everything happens here the way we want it to like. In the next, let's just say everything happens here the way we want it to like in the next five to 10, maybe 20 years to 50 years. How do you view museums in the next let's just call it 20 years? Like what do you think a museum looks like? Does it look the same? Does it look different? How would you want to view? What's your dream for a museum in the next 20 years?
Speaker 1:Wow, very nice question. Nobody's ever asked me that actually. Um, I don't think they will look the way that they do now. Um, I think, actually like, I think probably like with nft paris I don't know if you probably probably saw uh agoria did uh the performance at Museo del.
Speaker 1:Se and his work was being showed there and I think like that was quite a pivotal moment, to be honest, to really like realize and kind of like understand that even like big institutions and kind of like historical institutions, like museums, are slowly learning and wanting to embrace this more kind of like, let's say, digital culture.
Speaker 1:But also, I think probably what we'll see is that I believe, in the future, like there's gonna be a lot more interactivity within like these bigger institutions and even with galleries, I feel.
Speaker 1:I think there's like there's such a sometimes like a feeling of being in a very cold place when you're, you know, in a museum or in a gallery, and I think what, what might happen is that you know, people will be drawn, or like museums will be drawn to bring in more of like a participation within the audience into what they're showing and, um, and kind of like seeing museums more as like I don't want to say inclusive, because I do think they are, but like more, uh, less cold I don't know how to explain less, yeah, so I see that, uh, and I think it's happening already um, and then I also see like this kind of mix of like art, but even embracing like wider forms of art which could be like music or could be fashion.
Speaker 1:You know, like, historically, museums have been for the arts you know, the fine, the fine arts, and I feel like maybe in the future this might change a little bit and museums could, you know, embrace more of a like culture as a whole and like the, you know the kind of like, of like different cultures, whether it's art and fashion or art and music together, to kind of like show what is, you know, the contemporary culture that we're experiencing now, which I think is very blended. By the way, I don't believe that there's this, there will be such a definition of fine art as there has been in the past.
Speaker 2:I like that. I'm going to leave it there. I'm not going to add anything to it because I think it's a great place to end and I really appreciate that answer and I'm going to think about that for a little while. Yeah, well, Mikko, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1:And this has been an awesome chat and thank and thank you so much for spending uh, not only your time with me today.
Speaker 2:But just, yeah, I really loved all the different directions that this chat went um and really appreciate your thoughts here. I loved it. Thanks so much for hosting, absolutely, um, just hang out for a little bit. We'll let it finish uploading and then, uh, we'll, we, we'll part ways, but I hope you have a great rest of your afternoon, slash evening and, yeah, thanks again thank you, wuna have a good one, so you.