SHILLR
CURAT3D: A series of conversations with the people shaping the culture and technology of the new internet.
This series is produced by SHILLR -- the most trusted marketing, media & consulting firm in crypto.
SHILLR
CURAT3D: Deana Burke - Re-Thinking Community Building with Boys Club
In this episode with Deana Burke, we unpack what makes Boys Club... well... Boys Club. From dinner parties to bridging the gap between Web2 & Web3, the structure of their company + DAO, protecting the brand + more!
Deana socials:
X(Twitter): https://x.com/medeana
Boys Club:
Newsletter: https://boysclub.beehiiv.com/
SHILLR:
Website: https://www.shillr.xyz
Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/shillrxyz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shillrxyz
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@shillrxyz
we are going to define ourselves and our actions and move in the ways that we want to, and that's kind of that's kind of at the heart of it, honestly.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Curated, a series of conversations with the people shaping culture and technology of the new internet. This is a podcast series produced by Schiller, the most trusted marketing media and consulting firm in crypto. Before we jump in with today's guest, we want to make it clear that this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. I am your host, buna, and today I'm joined by Dina Burke, a serial entrepreneur and co-founder of Boys Club, a media outlet that covers crypto, pop culture, tech and somehow always has the dankest memes on deck. Boys Club stays at the edge of the internet and is one of the most dynamic and consistent media outlets in the tech industry. They produce the best events, two podcasts, a newsletter and are active on X, instagram and TikTok. Welcome, dina. How are you?
Speaker 1:Doing great. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2:You're absolutely welcome. It's been a long time coming, as I was mentioning earlier, like longtime fan for some caller, so happy to have you on, and I just got to say I want to start right out the gates with an article that I read. It's a long time ago, I think when you guys first started in 2021, natasha had described boys club as a dinner club with a group chat. Is that still the same?
Speaker 1:Oh, man we have. There has been so many iterations of how we answer the what is boys club question. That was certainly true at the time. I think it has evolved considerably since then and grown in many different ways. But that is in many ways, kind of the heart of it, which is people getting together online and IRL when we can and shooting the shit and chatting and being curious about tech.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, because I remember when I was talking to Fungible about this, he's like, yeah, I just like don't know what the fuck Boys Club is, and I love it Like it's like an IRL.
Speaker 1:It's kind of what is. Boys Club has kind of turned into its own meme, which is perfect, honestly, and I think I want to keep it as sort of elusive as possible.
Speaker 2:I mean it's kind of fun. It's like there's this element of like people just love to continue to like try to figure out and define something. That's like it's. We have like the feeling of what it is, but we can't quite really put it in a box. So I love that about you guys.
Speaker 1:I think that we are very. We have like antibodies that come up when people try to put us in any box. Honestly, when people try and put us in a woman box, when people try and put us in like a company box, like, it's something that all of us I think it's kind of a shared sentiment with a lot of people in Boys Club is like that, just a rejection of, of wanting to be perceived in in how society or how other people think that we should be. And so I think that that extends through to sort of the definition of what boys club is, where it's like what do you think it is? It's, it's kind of whatever you want to think about us is fine. We are going to define ourselves and our actions and move in the ways that we want to, and that's kind of at the heart of it, honestly.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think that the part that stuck out there is like a lot of people here just love to yap, you know, and like what you mentioned, like we're going to show you through actions versus telling you with words, like I think that's something that's really lost when it comes to context on the internet. Like I think a lot of people just misunderstand like oh, you know, we define what we are based off what we say, versus not like what we do. There's just there's so many, uh, pickaxes and like not enough shovels here, you know, like it's just like there's, there's a handful of people, there's a lot of people doing like great things, and then there's a handful of people doing like really, like really, really good things, you know, and it's it's, I think it's by that, um, you know where it's, it's easy to see. Like, if you spend enough time here, like it's so easy to see like who is like really here and like who is just kind of like LARPing. Um, so I I think I've real like that was part of what really enjoy, like I really enjoyed.
Speaker 2:When I first heard about you guys, I went to correct me. The event was brand new and awesome. Yeah, okay, yeah, like that was like one of the coolest parts is that there was this like Web 2.5, web 3, type of like hey, like we're here to yeah, we're not just here for the like microcosm of people that maybe found the space early, while that people have their place there. Um, I really found it inspiring to like see, okay, like you guys are really for the tech curious. Um, and I'm kind of I just want to dive into maybe cause brand new felt like a really big event for you guys. Um, like I know you guys have done, I love like the dinner parties. I love the the kind of like exclusive, like hey, like we're going to meet up here. Um, those are always super fun. But kind of walk me through what was different about doing this and like maybe what some of the challenges were and what you guys really learned.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, so I can just give some context for folks who might not be familiar with brand new. We um Austin during South by Southwest last year, march, and we did our first official conference, which was called brand new. And I mean, I think really what we feel as Boys Club is our role in this space. What we're uniquely good at is kind of bridge building to the world outside of Web3 and crypto. I think that there's we all know there's a bubble in and around the Web3 and crypto conversations and communities and conferences, and I think that's fine, I think that that's appropriate, and I think you go to ETH Denver and you go to these other moments where the community comes together and we're all kind of talking to each other and hanging out with each other, and I think that that's right in many ways, because there needs the more tightly networked a community is like, the more effective it can be in many ways, need to move outside of our circle, and I think that like that's something that, again, we're kind of uniquely positioned to do, we're uniquely good at, and so brand new is really our attempt to do that in a more formal way with a sort of IRL event, and our first one was in March and, yeah, the thinking was, how do we, um, how do we go into a new space that isn't crypto native at all, which is South by Southwest, uh, and do our best to kind of show a different side of crypto and web three, which, to the South by Southwest audience, has become totally a toxic, like I don't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole, and understandably so, like very understandably so, and so for us it was like there are all of the important Web2 brands, technology leaders, it's a culture hotspot, like let's go and kind of show, not tell, something that we see about this industry, which is that it's, it's really I mean, my view of it, and I'm sure it is yours as well, is that it's inhabited really by a lot of very well-intentioned and very creative people, and I think that that is lost in the mainstream media conversation for the bigger more like fantastical headlines around scams and hacks and SBF and all that stuff, which is, again, also needs to happen.
Speaker 1:Those stories need to be told, but the stories that aren't being told are about the people who are really creative and who see a new internet that's possible and using this tech, and so I think that's what we try to do. As we tried with our first brand new conference, we'll be doing another one, and that's also just like kind of what we try to do through our work, our day-to-day work too, which is, yeah, showing a different side to this industry, and one that, um, yeah, maybe isn't defined by some of the stuff that gets the headlines. Um, and also like making fun of the industry while we're at it, because what? That's? Because we make fun of ourselves. We're making fun of anything. That's sort of an extension of us, so it's really easy to make fun of ourselves.
Speaker 2:Here I mean cause, like you know, there's there make fun of ourselves here I mean because, like you know, there's there's I really enjoyed that and there's there's two sides to this that there's like some days, some days, I feel this way and some days I feel certain like a different way.
Speaker 2:There's, there's a part of me that really enjoys like the just the utter ridiculousness of this industry and like like, oh my god, like these people are just kind of rejecting what currently is. It's a little bit more degenerate than I maybe would have like normally how I would operate, but like it's still really fun. Yeah, like and it was, and there's a, there's a, there's a balance of like I really enjoy that, but I also understand that like there's let me back up, there's a part of me that's, like you know, regardless like make crypto so ridiculous that like they can't ignore it. There's like a part of me that that does feel that way. But there's also a part of me like okay, like we could do that, but it might. It might prevent us from like bringing a lot more people on board for, you know, a decade. You know, if we just kind of continue to like be hooligans um you know just uh run amok, for example.
Speaker 2:Um, so, like, I really enjoyed like that side of it, because I'll admit like especially I think that part of it was like that 2021 just really uh kind of mess. Like I think it messed with everyone, uh, about our expectations of like what this industry was, how fast the growth could be, yeah, um. So it's like, oh, every year is going to be like that and it's always going to be like this, and we don't really have to focus on like being intentional, because the financial opportunity will always bring people. Yeah, and while I think that's true, like I feel like this has been the weirdest bear market, like granted, you've been in this industry longer than me uh, you like literally built, uh, uh an at like a wallet for like people to get bitcoin on in, like I think it was 2017 yeah um, so yeah, like this bear market has been at, at least in my eyes, very different from the rest of it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you're calling it a bear market. I mean, I think we might be now technically. I know that there's some actual technical definition of when it's bearable, but I have also seen some takes that's like we're actually not in a bear market, but it just feels that way because I hate to use the word narrative, but that the narrative isn't. It's not being driven by like new and novel use cases yeah, although I would argue that things like polymarket prediction markets I think that is exciting and will define what's coming next. But yeah, I don't know that we've up until now seen like a fresh narrative that I think would define like a new bull market.
Speaker 2:That's very true. I mean, I think also from it's really interesting, there's a lot of different camps here. I think in the beginning there was only the coin camp, you know it was like it was only tokens, cause before, I mean, granted, NFTs were around, you know, obviously in 2017, 2018, but like NFTs weren't really here until 2020, 2021. So it's it's really interesting to watch the different camps, cause I see the coin camp say like, okay, we're definitely in a bull, you know, like we're definitely in a bull run, but like me who came in trading JPEGs, you know, and buying art, it's like we're definitely in a bull run, but like me who came in trading jpegs, you know, and buying art.
Speaker 1:It's like we're not.
Speaker 2:We're not bad yeah, like no way, you know so. And then you look at consumer crypto and it's like okay, like they're building really cool, like interesting, unique things, and so that's kind of like a blend of both. But there's like three different camps. Now that I've noticed where it's like oh, like, if you talk to each individual camp, you're going to get a different response.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's what makes this so like kind of unique and crazy yeah, yeah, totally so, yeah, uh, I do like the point, though, that you guys touched on around the the narrative and like telling the stories that aren't being told.
Speaker 2:Um, it's really one of the reasons why I got in here, um, because there was just not enough people telling the stories of artists and creators and builders.
Speaker 2:Uh, the only person that was doing it was kevin rose, and like love he did for the industry, like as far as, like those interviews go, like he uplifted a lot of people and shine the spotlight, but I was like, oh, there's literally no one else doing this and that needs to change, because it's like at least in my view, it's real easy to see like no one. What I'm trying to get at here is that, like I think you and me probably relate to this in the fact that we, for the most part, aren't headline readers and like we like to like read things maybe in its entirely entirety, but, like the rest of the world, a lot of it isn't like that. Um, and I've seen a lot like there was actually a random, uh a random girl I met uh it was at a social gathering and I was like she was like oh yeah, what do you do? I was like, yeah, like I'm in tech.
Speaker 1:I've been there. Yeah, it's like yeah.
Speaker 2:But the more I started talking with her, I couldn't help but like yap about that. I was in this industry and she's like, oh yeah, I've like heard of Boys Club and it was like someone some rant like she's involved in tech but like not in crypto at all.
Speaker 2:So I found that to be like really interesting, but it's yeah, it's like super like. My desk is wobbly here. It's super fascinating to see, kind of like, what has like latched on, and I think to your point. You know, polymark has probably been one of our first things that has like really brought crypto into a positive light, because most people aren't really, they don't really understand that it's crypto.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, it's abstracted completely yeah, and that's part of their how they tell their story as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah. So I mean that's and I think that's what we all we've all been clamoring for, totally, and it's like make this shit so easy that no one understands. Like I love my iPhone, but I don't understand the next thing how cloud architecture?
Speaker 1:works you know.
Speaker 2:All I know is that I pull it out of the box and it works. Yeah, like it's good. But yeah, I want to transition back to kind of like Boys Club and like, because one of the really interesting things is that you guys are a DAO and I have always had a big question mark around DAOs because it's like okay, I came up in legal tech, you know, it's like I know all about LLCs and corporations and like you know TVAs and all that stuff and it's like okay, but what makes a DAO different? And I'm curious to kind of like understand y'all's decision to like go into it like to be a DAO versus being like just an LLC or a corporation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I actually can clarify, because there is a DAO. There is a Boys Club DAO that has a shared multi-sig and then the media company is spun out to be a C-Corp. It's kind of more structured and there's lots of reasons why we did that, which I can talk about and maybe is interesting. But I think making sure that people understand sort of that there are two entities I think is important and the Boys Club DAO. So the media company, which is where we do like events and sponsorships and podcasts and stuff like that. That's all contained within the C-Corp and has, you know, four employees and we operate as a little startup business unit. But that came that wasn't there from the beginning of boys club like we, we started boys club in 2021. I don't think we set up that c corp until um, maybe a year ago. Um got a little bit more. So, uh, all that to say like when we first started boys club um, first of all, we started it and the reason we started it was we just like wanted to understand more what was happening in Crypto and Web 3. And we wanted to do that with, in real life and in and around, people who are also curious about it and who we could learn from and we could learn together in community. It started really organically. And also, natasha and I were both coming off of having our own startups that we had raised capital for and built products around and that didn't work. And didn't work because we built the product before we built like our audience or community or distribution engine, and so both of us had made that error independently and also said to ourselves that we would never that's like a classic first time founder mistake and we both made it and we're both like this sucks and never want to be in this position again. So when we were thinking about what we wanted to do next, it was always like, man, we just want to. We just want to like get people together and see, see what emerges organically from that. And so when when Natasha first became interested in Web3 and what was happening and and her interest really stemmed from that moment when Web3 and crypto was like seeping out into and touching into culture in interesting ways, so there was like social clubs, like friends with benefits, and then there was all the top shot stuff, the NBA, and then there was all the stuff that was happening with art you know, this is 2021, like that moment she was like okay, I think there's something here, and you know there's, and so she wanted to learn about it. And then we're like, maybe let's just like get a couple people in a room and like talk about it and learn about it. And so that's where Boys Club started from. It was really just that moment of curiosity from us together and wanting to do that with people, and also cognizant that we didn't know that we were starting a business in that moment, and we were kind of just like let's just start, let's just call it something, get people together in a room and see what happens. And if a community comes together, then maybe, then maybe there will be something, that some product that emerges from that. And so all that to say, that was 2021.
Speaker 1:We did our first event in Chinatown in November of 2021. And it was about, I think, 60 people. We had a couple speakers and it was just like electric. It was just totally like a moment. I will never forget that first event and what it felt like and the, the sort of exponential growth that happened. From that moment.
Speaker 1:Really, having done a startup that didn't work previously, I was like, oh wow, this is what it feels like when there's an idea that has energy around it, that you aren't like an individual founder pushing a rock up a hill, it's like, oh, there's, there's sort of a parade here and you can like help to organize that parade and and to help define it, and that's what the opportunity is and that's what it was with voice club and um.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, we did that first event and then, where there was like just a lot of um, there was a there felt like there was unmet demand for not only that type of like programming, where it's like let's learn together about what's happening in crypto and web3 and understand how, what it means for our careers and the things that we care about, like art or fashion or sports.
Speaker 1:It was like that at a programming and like learning level. But it was also there was a, I would say, like a pent-up demand for that type of community as well, so bringing people together socially and and having like some excuse to kind of get together and talk about ideas and, and you know, eat falafels with people you don't know. And so we were just kind of like following that, where we're like okay, we did our first one and we're like, okay, we'll do our second, another one and it was bigger and getting bigger and bigger. And then I'd say, a couple months into that, um, there was a bunch of people that started to sort of circulate around boys club as an idea and be like, I want to get involved and I want to like help in, I want to be a part of this thing. Um, parker, uh, patria, who's a very love, we love parker.
Speaker 1:So she's an angel. She was like, basically the first one that was like raise her hand was like I want to, I want to do this with you guys. And so the Dow really helped in that it became a container for us to organize that interest and momentum within.
Speaker 1:And so at first we were like, okay, we'll create a Dow that that sort of gives us some boundaries in a container around, like the people that want to be involved more meaningfully, and so that was kind of how that came together. And then the DAO the main DAO, the asset of the DAO was born from the NFT sale that we did, I think, in 2022. And so a DAO without an asset is just a bunch of people hanging out so, which is fine too and like great. But that was basically that NFT sale funded the DAO wallet and that is sort of the shared asset of the people that are involved in the DAO. Now we've had a couple of different iterations, seasons of the DAO, and we've tried different things and there's been different people that have come in and out of that DAO.
Speaker 1:I'd say right now we're kind of in a lull only because we want we haven't deployed any of the capital from the DAO wallet. Wow, that's impressive. Don't thanks, and don't want to deploy it until it's worth some like we don't want to be spending it now when in three years time it could be triple in size, and so we're kind of just like let's. We tried a couple different things as a DAO. We were like doing some programming stuff and all of that is fine and great, but we were, let's just pause.
Speaker 1:Let the money that's in that wallet mature, and then, you know, in a couple years time we might be in a really different position to be able to do a lot more with it.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, so we're kind of quiet right now as a DAO, um, but that's sort of the reasoning behind it no, it's super interesting and like real thanks for like sharing the color on that because, again, like I think, when I think of a dao, I can't think of like like the only daos to me, uh, you know, like are again, because I came in the art collecting side like you know, flamingo dao and like neon dao and like you know, the like those daos make a lot of sense like x copy dao, like things are kind of mobilizing around like one specific artist and like squiggle DAO obviously makes a lot of sense, um, and so y'all were like the first DAO where it's like, okay, this is like a broader culture DAO, you know, um, and it's it's cool to kind of hear the thought behind like maybe guys, like how you guys uh view momentum and like how you guys uh view momentum and like how you guys um, yeah, really, how you guys haven't even spent any of the treasury, that's yeah, like a lot of people in 2021 just blew through that treasury, um, and that's why you see a lot of people, I think um, one of the uh side effects, I mean the, the people who are like on the core team of the dow are, um, it's a lot of like type a ladies who are all kind of we needing, yeah, kind of like we, we a different woman, very similar font in terms of our personalities um, and I think that the the side effect of that is, um it, we've just been like extremely frugal around how that money is spent and also like, um, yeah, a lot of us like just come, which maybe isn't even necessarily health it actually is not a healthy thing but we come from like a scarcity mindset where we're like okay, there's money here
Speaker 1:we need to protect it instead of thinking about how we can grow it. So I think, yeah, I and I also none of us were like expecting to pay ourselves from the boys club Dow treasury and I think that was actually the. That's. The key difference is that a lot of these other Dows had operational costs that they had built into sort of what that treasury was doing and we split out like any of the boys club we. We split that out into the, the c corp, just because, like, we needed to be able to incentivize a smaller team to be able to work on sort of that business of boys club and so that's where all the operation overhead goes, and so none of that's hitting the dow treasury.
Speaker 2:This is super in the weeds, but I don't know if that no, I know I this is yeah, like I I asked um and it's because it's super like, like it's super fascinating uh to me and I'm and it may be like for what you can share like totally okay if you can. But like I'm curious, kind of like it when you have, uh, you know, the Dow treasury isn't really touched Uh, but also, like, how do you guys, you know, how do you guys bring a revenue? Um, like through only sponsors? Is that through like events? Is that? Yeah, because it's just like you guys are well like, at least from what it you know appears on my. It's like wow, like you guys are like well oiled machine, like you don't have to take any anything from the dow. Um, yeah, just kind of curious because like media is like so not profitable, yeah, it takes a lot of work and it's so not profitable. So like yeah again, if this is too totally, totally happy to share.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, we so I maybe can continue the story so we started the dow, funded the doubt, that's our treasury. Then, um, I'd say I'm like now losing when the years were. But I'd say about a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago, we were like man, we really there's an opportunity. So I'll back up we were doing some experimentation with the DAO and we had funded the DAO through, honestly, experimentation with NFTs, like the whole thing. Even from the inception of Boys Club, it's just been like let's experiment in places that we find fun and interesting, and so that was like the NFT experiment. That's the DAO experiment.
Speaker 1:Honestly, none of us knew anything about a DAO and we're like let's just kind of learn it together because we're the type of people that like like to learn by doing, and doing it together is like fun and we get to hang out with each other on a zoom call and whatever. So we were experimenting with that. And then, at the same time, we were experimenting with um media stuff. So, like, we started writing a newsletter really early actually, we started writing the newsletter in, I think, december of 2021. Um, a weekly newsletter.
Speaker 1:That was kind of just like under trying to bring context to what was happening in crypto web 3 initially, and so we started that newsletter and that started growing um, and then we were doing the event still, and then we were like through the newsletter we, okay, there's kind of this editorial voice that's emerging that people seem to resonate with. And so we started to be like what if we are applying that editorial voice to different media properties? So that's when the podcast started. We're like let's just, I don't know, try doing a podcast, see what it's like. I don't know, try doing a podcast, see what it's like. And also another big part of starting the podcast at first was information sharing. So we had the DAO and, as you know, in DAOs, like information asymmetry is like one of the biggest issues where sharing information is like it's 90% of the job and it's annoying and hard and so much gets lost in those moments. So at first we were like starting the podcast to like help share about what's going on in boys club with at scale, um and so. But then, like we were just finding ourselves a different conversation. So then, honestly, we got to a point where there was some like material interest from sponsors to be to, to underwrite, to sponsor those media properties and then, at the same time, natasha and I were both like itching to leave our jobs and we were both working full time. We had, for the first, like two and a half years of work, so we're both working other full time jobs, full-time jobs and so but it didn't make sense for us to like we needed to be fully incentivized to take the risk and leave our jobs, and that meant having a meaningful ownership stake in something that, like we could understand and that's legal. And so that's when we had to spin out, that's when we decided to spin out boys club Media. Like the C Corp, because we needed to be able, like the DAO is an illegal structure, there's no ownership, it's like a shared, amorphous thing and you know. So it's like in order for us to be able to stable jobs that we have upside in, like, we needed to have something that we could like understand what the cap table is and it's a legal entity that, like we're, we feel comfortable taking the risk. And so we spun off the C Corp and started immediately like monetizing the media properties into that C Corp and also the events as well, so I'd say, the revenue into Boys Club.
Speaker 1:What sustains our salaries Miranda, who works with us and kate who works with us, you see, on social media, um, as well as our design. So there's a couple people um is through events, sponsorship, partnership and, uh, media sponsorship. There's some nominal, honestly, the, the, the drops that we do, like our break eveneven. Those are kind of more market break-even marketing expenses, um, but yeah, that's how the sort of money works around it. And, um, media businesses yeah, I think we're thinking a lot about, like what a media business is in 2024, um, how you, how you, what the money looks like now and in the future. But I do like we were just we just did a podcast with Maya Bakai, who runs Spice Capital, and do you know, maya, I don't, I don't, I only know one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's wonderful and she was talking about how the creator economy, like creators are now just like I don't. I, it looks like, as long as we're not take. I think when it gets weird with media businesses is when you take venture capital and we've never taken venture capital, we have no intention on taking venture capital, but that's when the numbers get upside down and when you're like chasing hyper growth and get into weird incentive structures. I think for us, since we didn't take on venture and we were profitable from the start, it's allowed us to grow incrementally. Now there's some challenges in that, namely a couple of things. First of all, we're paying ourselves under market rate and so, because it's a startup and that's, what you do, and so, like that's challenging and brings along with it its set of stresses.
Speaker 1:And then the second thing is that we're in a category that isn't experiencing growth right now and so, like, from an audience like you know, I'm sure you get this Like Crypto Number 3, it's a tough category to be trying to find new people in, and so, anyway, I've been rambling but like that's kind of just where we're at as a business and it's working, and it's working really well, especially considering like we never we had never intended to be in this position, but yeah, it's not without.
Speaker 2:Like it's challenges, yeah, for sure, and I mean this position, but, um, yeah, it's not without like it's challenges, yeah for sure, and I mean I love to kind of like kind of unpacking that whole story there, like I wasn't on the founding team of of schiller, uh, but I came in about a year and a half later and is very similar, you know like, even like when the founders joined, like that jump to go full-time, it was a, it was a very similar story. Like they had to be. They kind of formed around this idea of, uh, what if we could do marketing, but different, you know, um, and like what if we could like not, you know, use a bunch of paid KOLs and like not, you know like, enlist a bunch of scammers and not use paid ads, um, and stuff like that and so?
Speaker 2:but it was a while before they could like make the jump, because it had to be like, if you're not incentivized, you're not going to do it um yeah, and I mean, I was the same way, like even when I got brought on, like there was a standstill that we had with with me and the founders. I was like, yeah, like you know, comfy job, salary, you know benefits, uh, you know, like all these things, um, but it wasn't really for me until, like, I had lost, uh, or I'd gotten laid off. It was like I came back to the team I was like hey, like down to rethink this, you know, and the incentive structure was right and it was kind of that right moment, right place, right time. So it's really like thank you for kind of like just taking us through like that. Yeah, that journey like I'm always just a nerd about stuff like that because I think it's a huge, it's a huge deal and it's a big risk, like because, like you said, you know, number one media really hard to grow in in any industry.
Speaker 2:Number two, like we like we are literally pushing them out like the rock up and it's like yeah, like trying to get people to give a fuck about crypto is really, really hard, and so it's, but it's also really cool to kind of see how things have. I think the through line are from the very beginning was that, you know, you guys started with an idea and like really casual, and started, you know, and saw if something materialized from that and saw if there was a there there. You know, um, because I, you know, working in legal tech, I helped people start businesses and there were so many people that like wanted to file the structure. They were so hyped because they got sold on some sort of idea about being a solopreneur. Yeah, they started the business before they really tested the idea and that's why like 90, 90 to 95% of businesses fail. Yeah, so yeah, thanks for like diving deep into that.
Speaker 1:I will say one thing about business failure is that with my first startup in 2017, 2018, 2019, I was running that and winding that down. When I couldn't find traction, I couldn't raise my second round of funding. It was the worst thing ever and it was like, honestly, it was just the terrible feelings, like whatever the worst feeling and like that's that every day for a while. You're doing that process. But I will say now, with some maturity and age and hindsight, that I needed to have failed in that particular way in order to be building Boys Club in this way now, Not to say that Boys Club is some runaway success, but we're in a much stronger position now.
Speaker 1:I think because of the lessons that both Natasha and I individually learned as startup founders previously, and I think that that perspective is always impossible in the moment, truly impossible in the moment. But I don't know. I think, if there's anyone listening that like is going through something that feels hard like I, I just, yeah, I can't say enough, like how much I've learned through that process and like now informs the decisions that I make every day around boys club, um, that, yeah, it feels, feels invaluable, even if boys club doesn't work like I, I can appreciate how much I grew through that.
Speaker 2:So you know, totally, failure is like it's a big part of it when you're playing the particular game that we're playing totally, and I think I'm glad you said that, because I think it's something a lot of people again like kind of hesitate to. I think it might be one of the reasons why a lot of people hesitate just to take action and like would rather just complain versus just do something. Because of like what if it's you know, what if it's not the right thing? What if I like suck at it, what if I feel at it?
Speaker 2:But like, like you said, I mean that, that that height, that perspective is impossible to see in that, yeah, like it's literally impossible to see in that moment. But, um, it's, it's great that you mentioned that like this was like exactly what. Like that, like this wouldn't exist if that hadn't like been there. Yeah, um, I think it's so easy on the internet to just think of like overnight success and like totally, I guess, survivor bias yeah, everywhere you look yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:It's easy to glamorize that, it's easy to, like, you know, put that up on a pedestal, but, like, most of the time, it comes from like, really crushing. You know, uh like. This is so, jover. You know, uh like feelings right, um, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, because I think we've all had our fair shares of that. And I want to segue this into a question, actually from an early, early member of Voice Club. I reached out to her before the podcast Blake Feiney-Kane big fan what would be a unique question that she's like wanted to know to, to ask you guys and she was. Her question was primarily around protecting the brand, you know, kind of protecting and stewarding the brand of voice club. Like there's this, like there's this identity. It's very clearly defined, what's it's? It's clear and unclear and that's what keeps people exciting. Like how do you guys defend the brand? Like how do you guys defend the brand? Like how do you guys protect it? Like what's kind of the thought behind that? And I found that was like a really interesting question.
Speaker 1:Wow. First of all, blake Finucane is among Okay, I completely pronounced her name. Oh, it's fine. She is among the few pearls in this industry that, like she, is such a gem and a wonderful human being on on so many levels. Uh, it's just the kindest, like, sweetest, most thoughtful person, but also, paired with, she's probably one of the most legitimate thinkers um around nfts and art. That I think, like she's humble and that she would never say that herself, but she literally did her master's on um nfts in 2017, I think around pepe's on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah, early pepe's yeah yeah, and incredible there, there's there I don't know anyone else who has applied that level of academic rigor to the category um and also is an art historian. So she's like marrying this, like academic rigor around the technology of nfts and what that means for the art industry and also has an art historian perspective and trained art historian and the. The combination of her being just an incredible human being, having that academic background and having the art historian background is like it's a trifecta. That is um I. It's incredibly rare and uh, she's just yeah, I think everyone should be listening to her and following her and um just can't say enough good, so that's flake, uh, but her question is really a good question it's really a good question.
Speaker 2:I thought I thought so too. I was like yeah, because it's something that like I think I it's something that was one of those subtle things I picked up on, but like I didn't quite, I couldn't quite like put the words to the question. Yeah, but like when you said that, I was like oh, my god, yes, like I have to ask that, yeah, it's not it's not a straightforward answer and I will say it's not.
Speaker 1:It's it there's the establishment and sort of protection around the brand also doesn't come without this controversy, because I think it's like it's something that it's some the brand okay. So I will start with sort of the brand definition and the work around the brand of boys club. We've always been very intentional about it and uh, and creating a brand that feels subversive but also, and exclusive but also welcoming, is a really fine line to uh walk and is something that we're we're constantly trying to figure out. Um, I think also there's a balance in our brand and world building around like a chaotic, even down to our art direction, like chaotic and messy, with like a level of um, like sophistication and aspiration. Those those are also at typically can be at different poles and we're trying to like always be balancing between those. So that's like just in terms of how we think about when we were initially concepting the brand and like how it would come to life, um, both from an art perspective and also like within the editorial voice. Um, and it's something that like work where there's a constant tension around, but we are figuring out um, I would say that early on, especially when we were first doing the voice of dow and um, there was also a lot of tension in what was the sort of perceived notion and perceived wisdom at the time especially 2021, 2022, especially was it's everyone's.
Speaker 1:You create a brand and you give it to the world and you see what the world does with it, and I think that that is true for a lot of things and I think that that is really powerful for really well-established brands and for brands for whom the IP is defined enough that you can release it to the world. So that's why the NFT collections had so much success with that, because it's like you have one thing to work with. It's a little penguin with a hat on it and you can remix that, because you can recognize still the original sort of totem of what it is. You're remixing it into whatever it is, but you're still recognizing that it's a penguin Totally. And I think for Boys Club that was never true. We never had a mascot, an icon around the brand.
Speaker 1:That felt like it was something that we could give to the world to mix and remix, that you could still see the underlying brand in. It was too nascent so and also too amorphous, and that was also like what we wanted. We didn't want a little figurine like that, like it just never made sense for us. It never made sense for us.
Speaker 1:And so I think that, especially early days, we came up against a lot of criticism, honestly, where people were like this you're too centralized and too protective of boys club as a brand, um, you're not giving it out enough to the community to do things with. And navigating that early on was hard, but it was like instinctually what we knew we needed to do in order because we didn't have the same um, sort of we weren't working with the same set of tools as a lot of the other like nft projects that people were comparing us to. Um, the brand was more editorial, it was more elevated, it was didn't have we didn't have this icon or or like visual thing that people could play with. So, um, we have always been more steve jobs about it.
Speaker 1:Um, love that and uh, and I think now in 2024, like we don't get like that's fine and we don't get the same like heat on it, but it was not. It was certainly challenging at first. I think that we are the brand and the equity around the brand and the association and awareness around the brand is honestly like it's the asset of the brand and the association and awareness around the brand is honestly like it's it's the asset of the media company. It's the only asset we have, it's the only hard asset we have, and so we need to be protective of it. And um, and so I think that that's uh, yeah, that that has, um, informed our decisions around it, um, and yeah, I'll pause there, but that's kind of I don't know if that's the world of what you're hoping to hear yeah, no, it's, it's I.
Speaker 2:I like the distinction because it's not like. The first initial reaction was like it sounds like you guys were building something that, technically, wasn't supposed to exist till right now. You know, because, like, when it comes to like the way things were, like where it was like, yeah, you have this ip. It was very one-dimensional in 2021, and I think my take on it was like this is our first real stab at like expressing identities that we have ownership in, like that was like for me, like I was, oh, as a video game nerd who plays a lot of, who bought a lot, spent way too much money on weapon skins and stuff like that, this really made sense and I think, to your point, though, it was really there was a. The mascot was easily identifiable, it was ours, not yours.
Speaker 2:I think that was something that really stuck out to me and I really appreciate that clarification, because things that were successful had visual elements to it, like a thing.
Speaker 2:There was that thing, and I can imagine trying to start something without a thing in 2021 was even more uphill than it probably is right now, and I think we're starting to see more people that don't have that thing start to become a lot more prevalent.
Speaker 2:I think, probably, if I had to comment, it was like probably just a sign of maturity, like cause, yeah, if you look at, like, if I look at web three as being one big startup and we start with like throwing spaghetti at the wall and there's like this first initial idea and if, like you know, we're going to run that to a gazillion, we're going to run it to the ground and then we're going to see what comes, like after we rise from the ashes here for lack of a better term Like after we burn it all down, which we definitely did Do you think? I guess the question is do you think any of that criticism, that criticism like I'm curious like how that criticism like helped shape like what you guys are like. Yeah, because, like as you, as you mentioned, like earlier, like the growth, like growth from adversity is like you can't really see the perspective in the moment, but I'm kind of curious, like did that play a role in kind of helping you guys, um, shape it to what it is today?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I think that, seeing a lot of, I'm trying to figure out a way to say this diplomatically.
Speaker 2:I show you.
Speaker 1:It's 2024.
Speaker 1:Boys Club exists, is thriving and is in a much better position than a lot of our counterparts in this industry.
Speaker 1:You mentioned a man who raised a ton of venture capital, was a venture capitalist itself, who had a really high profile project and, like there's a lot of examples to point to to other projects that were much better capitalized than we were, that are no longer with us.
Speaker 1:And, um, there is, we have our own sort of survivor, um bias in in being still standing in September 2024 when a lot of people are no longer. And I think that has strengthened our resolve in our approach to building the brand of Boys Club and trusting our instincts, which have always been our instincts, which was to keep it a much more smaller, singular vision of what it is, um and how it's defined, then then sort of designed by committee, uh, and so I think like it's honestly just been like we're still here, it's working. We were, we must have been right about a few things, and I think one of the one of the things that we were definitely right about was the brand and how we like cared for it and continued to build it, and so I think that that's kind of not to like sound pompous, but I think that that is kind of where we're at with it no-transcript.
Speaker 2:you're doing something different. Therefore there's no blueprint to go off of. So it's like all you really have is your gut, um, and I feel like that's something not a lot of people here know how to do and it usually takes like some sort of flavor of being grounded in something like having kind of like a grounded personal life. You know for as much as we can. Kind of funny in this industry. Talking about that, by the way, loved like y'all's talk on, like spirituality. That episode of the feeling second, that was probably oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause it's. I got sober at 21. So I, I practiced the spirit. You know like it's like my day to day is like practiced and rooted in that. So it's like, yeah, definitely hit me. Um, definitely hit me in a different way than oh I, I hear that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's cool to kind of see like the vision hasn't remained unchanged. You know you guys had a plan. You stuck with it and I think, yeah, just trying to like say this in a bunch of different ways, that, like that doesn't sound pompous at all to me. Okay, thanks, I guess, kind of like looking ahead, I mean you guys have published, like, I think, 173 podcasts. You know you guys have published 170, like, I think, 173 podcasts. Um, you know, uh, you guys have had some incredible guests on, uh, some of which I've known, many of which and I love that like many of which I haven't known and I've gotten to experience as a result of like, yeah, like listening to you guys do your thing. Um, curious, like there's there's a kind of a forward facing question, but there's also just on a from a media host. Like you guys keep it really bite-sized in kind of like 30 minutes to. Maybe I think the longest one was that I listened to was Chris Dixon, which was right around an hour. We let him keep talking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just yeah, like that's a man, you just kind of like, don't really do, there's some gas, or you're like, go off, do your thing, yeah. Yeah, I mean he was the first person that like I really understood the writing that he was putting down. I was like, oh wow, like this guy helped build the internet, like this makes a lot of sense. Um so, yeah, love that episode, by the way, but I'm kind of curious like y'all's strategy and approach to doing like really, uh, bite-sized, versus more kind of like uh, long form or like conversation oh man, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say it's a movable feast. We are constantly experimenting and like we're there. What it looks like today, first of all, subject to change entirely tomorrow um, but also it is a result of us buying a lot of different things and, like you said, throwing a lot of um spaghetti at the wall.
Speaker 1:Um, I think that, um, there are, uh, I, I think we are designing for a person who is not fully in, like it's great, we have a lot of listeners that are fully in crypto war three or full, or work in the industry or um, work in adjacent, but like also interested industries and and that that's definitely defines like the heart of who engages with boys club media and for sure. But we're designing for people to be able to come in who who are aren't and who don't work in crypto war three and who, like, maybe work in tech, um, but maybe not also like maybe like it's just an acupuncturist or a florist and they have some curiosity around some of the things that are happening in and around tech or crypto or three, but don't have really an access point for it. They're not going to listen to all in, they're not going to listen even to hard fork, because those dudes are like they're, they're just, they're just not um, there's not five.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're, they're just. They're just not. Um, there's not five. Yeah, they're not the vibe exactly. Um, they're not gonna read the verge, they're not, certainly not gonna read coin desk, they're not, they, they have.
Speaker 1:That's the person that we're interested in, in reaching, and we, we are conscious, always conscious, to try and create as welcoming and approachable access point for them as possible.
Speaker 1:And so I think, when it comes to sort of the design of the content, that's really it's a reflection of that, where it's like all right, if we were to do a three-hour joe rogan style with people and like just loose roaming, I don't know that we would ever meet that woman who we're trying to meet, that listener.
Speaker 1:It's just not. It's just you're not, you're never going to turn on a three a hour like podcast on something you don't know, like I, I wouldn't, at least. And so I think it's it's really in service of like that person who's curious but doesn't have an access point. And then also, I think it's really in service of like that person who's curious but doesn't have an access point. And then also, I think the side effect of it is we are in terms of like, discovery and growth, we're very social first, and so like the cutdowns and stuff, is a big part of our growth strategy and marketing strategy and so having things that like come through, that are short, that we can put on all the places, the Web 2 places for that sort of distribution layer, is important for us as well, I like the way you put it.
Speaker 2:Like we never get to meet that person, like if we're like, you know, it's like each time you put this out, like you get to meet someone, kind of like if you're just meeting face to face, like we are right now, you know, like I love the way you put that because it's super like, approachable and welcoming.
Speaker 1:It's like hey, like yeah, we're going to meet you literally where you're at, but also like it's reflective of that, of the experience of that person as well, where it's like I don't people, you meet people in podcasts. When I'm turning on a new podcast first time, first time, and I'm meeting that host and I I have, whatever that reaction is and I it's more than often a turn off, a nope, I know out of it, and so, yeah, we're just like really conscious for, like how, what that person's first experience is and um, and it's, it is like meeting someone in real life yeah, that makes a lot of sense, though.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, I really do, because, yeah, it's uh. I think I've been having a lot of chats with with some friends around just like like cutting down on, like my like going on a media diet. It's like, okay, why am I listening to this podcast? You?
Speaker 1:know like why?
Speaker 2:why am I doing this like?
Speaker 1:what I'll be interrogating our media diets. Myself included, I have an awful media diet, so if there's any like self-help media diet stuff sent in my way I need help.
Speaker 2:I gotta say, after I feel like the person I've chatted to the most about this has been Roy, and like he has been like my saving grace of like yeah, he's like yeah, I've been listening to podcasts since like 2011. I'm just like mostly stopped. Uh, you know, and it just it comes to a point. I think for me it came to a point of like what am I avoiding versus what am I doing, you know, because I I found myself just jumping from like podcast to podcast and not even giving myself time to like critically, think about what I just listened to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fair you know yeah and like, and, and I think that like that's something that's super lost in this. I'm not even going to call it crypto, but just in this age in general, is that critical thinking is becoming a commodity. It's becoming something super valuable to do, and I think it's so easy when we have dopamine hits from TikTok, twitter, podcasts, shows, music, whatever the case may be. It's so easy just to not think like. It's just so easy to like yeah, yeah, I don't know. So I think part of that for me came from a desire to like. Maybe I just become like super disciplined and like. Maybe I just want to think and maybe like that just means I cut out 90 of the podcasts thanks, let me know, how that goes I will, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Instead of listening to every lex friedman episode, I listen to the ones that are like super relevant to how you would listen to every Lex Friedman episode a lot of them. Yeah, one and a half. The secret to Lex Friedman is figuring out how to master consuming at one and a half speed yeah, like that's it's been a thing. But yeah, I can't listen to Lex Friedman if it's not at one and a half x. I just want to like that 9 hour Neuralink episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like that was 1.5x is it worth it because I saw it today when I was going through some podcasts to potentially listen to. Would you recommend it?
Speaker 2:I think it is. So it's. It's broken down into four different conversations so you can kind of pick and choose, like if there's a cert. Because he, he talked with, I think, elon for the first hour and a half. Then he did a separate conversation with three or two or three different heads of whoever at neural link who had a lot of different perspectives and like what they were building, and then he had one final conversation with noah, who was the first person to get the implant. Okay, um, which is really cool. So if you want to like piecemeal it out, I felt like for me I just wanted to get the whole, like I just wanted the scoop, and I also had like a a long road trip, so it was easy for me to like do that, um, but if you really, if you kind of, if that just seems, because it's like honestly, like when I press plan that, like that's fucking intended, totally, totally, yeah, yeah, honestly, it's kind of goals.
Speaker 2:I'd love to be able to do that one day, but, like man, that's a lot, that's a lot um, but I found it super fascinating from getting to hear it from the neurosurgeon's perspective versus like the head of, like mobile, or like the head of this or the head of that I have a long flight coming up, so I'm like literally right now, going to download it do it, and he has the time stamps of like when each conversation starts and stops. So if there's one that you don't want to listen to and you like don't, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I gotta say I'm not a. I've never listened to a full Lex Friedman podcast, so I'm a little intimidated about that.
Speaker 2:But you know well, I think he's doing a lot of good like in the sense of like he's like Joe Rogan, but he's like that style, but he's he's clearly trying to like you can tell like whether he succeeds. Every episode you can tell there's a genuine love of like trying to help change the world. Like one interview at a time and like he's like he does his best to say like really unbiased, which I think what opened my eyes up with him was when he interviewed Kanye and like Lex is clear, you know Lex is Jewish and like when Kanye was on his whole, you know, doing his thing, um, like the amount of composure that he uh kept while asking really like direct and thoughtful questions. I was like, wow, like this guy's really good, like that's. I couldn't imagine someone saying things like that to my face about my people and being able to just like not explode. Yeah, yeah, um, so, yeah, like Lex, small Lex Friedman show, um, but yeah, big fan Also, he's an Austin kind of you know it's uh well, so, so so is Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so is Joe Rogan I. I like Joe Rogan only with very specific guests. It's like if he's interviewing Tool or the main or the lead singer. I'll always listen to them Because they have good chemistry and it's good. But like any other conversation, I've kind of just faded. Joe Rogan yeah, I hear that. It's just I don't know. I feel like he lost his touch.
Speaker 1:I honestly listened to my first Joe Rogan, listening to the Peter Thiel episode, and I, I, I was, I could, I had an experience. I'll I'll put it that way more than anything else. I'm like he, I, I, he's. He has some very fringe beliefs. Yeah, oh yeah, like we're fringe as fuck. And sorry, I don't know if it's cursed- on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I've said it a lot, yeah.
Speaker 1:How fringy and like whatever. It's fine, but like how fringy is compared to his reach is really what blew my mind. Knowing what type of numbers he puts down on each podcast episode and mapped with like how, on the margins, some of his beliefs are, is that. That was the most shocking thing to me. Yeah, but anyway we digress.
Speaker 2:No, it's very fair, like that's, and that's part of like. I don't think I was quite as like you. You know, I think we're always like learning, uh, to kind of be more confident in like what we like, what we don't like, and like what we believe and don't believe, and I think part of me is still discovering and being super confident of like, what that is for me and I. But I one thing I'll notice, like, even if I'm too, whether it's fear or whether it's like dislike. I noticed myself just dripped away. I'm like you know what. I may not know why I'm drifting away. All I know is that I'm drifting away and I'm sure I'll figure it out later. But anyway, love that little rabbit hole, that tangent. Want to wrap it up? I know you have a hard stop soon here. Would love to. This is a stolen question from one of the podcasts I do listen to, but slightly retouched for web3. Um, what is the kindest thing that someone has ever done to you in this space?
Speaker 1:oh, um, that's such a great question that's one of my favorites, yeah um, I think, I think. I think one of the kindest things that has been done for me and that I try to do whenever I can, is when I've been advocated for, when I'm not in the room.
Speaker 1:So, there's one person I'll call out specifically. Her name is Shara Doherty. She works at A16Z Crypto. She runs comms there and she I know for a fact I haven't wasn't in the room when it happened, but I know that she has been in rooms with powerful, influential people and has advocated for me personally for Boys Club as an extension, has talked about the good that she thinks that we do in the rooms where we're not in him and um, and and doing so, puts herself like she doesn't have anything to earn by that in her relationship with me, um, and only puts herself at risk.
Speaker 1:Uh, if, like, if there's some action taken and then we don't hold up our side of the bargain, whatever. But that meant a lot to me and means a lot to me, and I know that other people do it and I've done it as well, and I think that that's like the. That's one thing I try to do as frequently as possible and also try to instill in the culture of Boys Club is how can we be speaking other people's names in rooms that they're not in and helping to advocate for them in spaces that they don't have any power or, you know, influence yet? So I think that like, yeah, that's something that I think about a lot and try to put into a daily practice for myself.
Speaker 2:I love that. Yeah, I don't have anything to add to that, I just want to leave that as it is. Nice, um, love that. Uh, lastly, what you know, just to kind of point people in the direction of boys club, like do you guys have anything exciting coming up? Uh, also, where should people go if they want to jump off the diving board? Cool, what's the best? First place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we do have some fun stuff coming up. We're testing out a new sports business vertical. It's called Athleisure. We have some incredible people who are running it, a woman who works in innovation at the NHL and a woman who works. She's in New Zealand. She works with rugby stuff there. I don't know anything about that sport or do I know about the NHL, but they came to us with this idea and, yeah, it's called Athleisure. So if you're into sports, sports business, sports marketing, innovation, that's a great place. We're trying to do our best to sort of verticalize.
Speaker 1:You can tell in my talking about Boys Club If you're into sort of just like tech, you're curious what was happening, web3 and Crypto Boys Club, the main podcast or newsletter, boysclubvip you'll be able to navigate easily to there. And then, yeah, if you're more sort of, if you're into shorts and Instagram inclined, we have a lot of. We have a great Instagrammer entertaining and informational Instagram account at boysclubworld. So, yeah, we there's lots of different places and lots of different flavors of Boys Club, but those are some great places. And then we're also on Farcaster as well at Boys Club.
Speaker 2:You guys are everywhere. Yeah, club, you guys are everywhere. Yeah, you guys are everywhere. Yeah, shout out to the instagram page uh, one of my favorite meme dump uh pages, it's kate.
Speaker 1:Shout out to kate who, who runs social for us, that she's uh, honestly, she's been crushing it yeah, yeah, she's been crushing it.
Speaker 2:so shout out to you guys uh, dina, I know I've kept you for longer than uh than you probably signed up for, so, yeah, I really appreciate your time here. This has been phenomenal.
Speaker 1:Such a pleasure. Thank you so much for a wonderful conversation. It's so fun to hang out with you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, you as well. And yeah, I'll let you get out of here. And yeah, have a great rest of your day you too. Thanks for watching.