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CURAT3D: A series of conversations with the people shaping the culture and technology of the new internet.
This series is produced by SHILLR -- the most trusted marketing, media & consulting firm in crypto.
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CURAT3D: DJenn - Redefining Media and Storytelling in the Age of AI and Crypto
In this episode, we dive deep into a conversation with Jen, co-founder of Remint Reality. We explore the evolution of NFTs, AI and deep fakes, L2 ecosystems, and the future of decentralized media and finance. Jen breaks down the complexities of NFT finance, the exciting potential of the Blast L2, and the opportunities within tokenized real-world assets. This discussion covers the convergence of culture, technology, and the transformative power of the new internet.
Jenn Socials
X (Twitter): https://x.com/djenn
YouTube: youtube.com/@remintreality
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AI and deep fakes are getting so good that I definitely see in the next five to 10 years, if there are creators out there that have a story to tell or like have a really compelling way to break something down, I can totally see them using AI generated avatars to create that content, while keeping themselves anonymous.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Curated, a series of conversations with the people shaping culture and technology of the new internet. This is a podcast series produced by Schiller, the most trusted marketing media and consulting firm in crypto. Before we jump in with today's guest, we wanna make it clear that this podcast is for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered investment advice. We're hyped to announce that season three of the Curated pod is now powered by Towns. Built on base and running on river, towns is a permissionless group chat application that allows anyone to create and own digital town squares on their own terms. Available on web and iOS, with full end-to-end encryption, users can join or create feature-rich towns with native on-chain gating, paid memberships and more, with tons of exciting features and rewards coming soon. We'll also be collabing with our friends of the we Do a Little pod in a joint town, so make sure to tap in and get access to town's exclusive giveaways, rewards and more. Check the description for more info and head to townscom to get started today.
Speaker 2:In this episode, I'm joined by Jen, a wildly talented content creator who's captured the mindshare of the community with her easy-to-follow educational content around new protocols and layers on the Ethereum blockchain. Prior to crypto, she had been freelancing as a director and director of photography for immersive 360 experiences for several large companies like Google, samsung and Vice GM. Jennifer, how are you?
Speaker 1:I'm good. How are you? I can't believe you just called me Jennifer. Am I in trouble?
Speaker 2:I was going to ask right when I said that, because I know you're Jennifer on Twitter or on X and then you have Jen here. So was I right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean. So it's funny, the X handle came about when I was like a child and I was like let me just combine like Jen, and then my last name starts with a D and I'll just stick it together and I thought I was being kind of clever. Really wish I had thought provoking on Twitter. That would be pretty dope, but I go by Jen, okay cool, all right, I just wanted to make sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just, it naturally came off. So no, you're not in trouble, you're in the exact opposite of trouble, like I'm really happy to have you on here. How are you doing today?
Speaker 1:I'm doing really, really well. I just stuffed my face with some tacos and thank you for having me on. It's always like really fun to get to like do these one on one conversations and I always, like you know I don't know how to phrase this correctly, but it it like kind of makes me giddy that I'm like, oh, my god, someone wants to talk to me like and like hear like my story or my thoughts on things like. Oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:so I'm super excited to be here yeah, absolutely, and I the the podcast a couple of the podcasts that I've been on I feel the same way. It's like oh, it's kind of nice being asked the questions for once. Like this is kind of rad. Someone has a genuine interest. No, as I was saying before, I'm pretty sure I found you through Fungible. He's just so chronically online and I am too, and we just have different. We have a lot of places where our communities merge and a lot of interest, but there's also parts and corners that we some of us don't like. We don't spend a lot of time, we do a little cross-pollination.
Speaker 2:So, foundy, through Fungible and like, have just been loving your content ever since and I, you know there's media always has like a special place for me personally because I know when I first came here and we'll get it I want to get into your story here about maybe when you came in, but there just wasn't a lot of media presence, like in 2021.
Speaker 2:It's just like you know, there was like Kevin Rose and there was like there was the, the cyber brokers, but Josie, josie Blaney did some media and there was a few other people that I'm sure like I'm obviously missing. I know there was more than that, but there really wasn't much. And then you had Gary V. You know it was like, and so there was this huge gap of like just people trying to figure it the fuck out and like finding specific niches and topics that were really interesting, and it was like to figure shit out was really hard. Back then. It was you kind of actually had to like critically think so media. I mean you still do, but like media always has a near and dear spot to me, and so I would just maybe love to kick things off with like why media, you know like what made you fall in love with doing this.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's actually pretty interesting because ever since I was a little kid, like literally like middle school, I was like I want to go into film production, I want to make movies, I want to make TV shows, I want to make commercials. There was just something about seeing how, like the camera moves in different commercials, like I would literally like sit there as a kid and be all like I wonder how they did that in my head immediately, but just like start trying to figure it out. And so when I went into high school, I actually, you know, I was self-taught in graphic design because I was a lonely child in elementary school and so I was like on online game forums and you know, like learning how to Photoshop so I could have like a cool signature banner that would go with all of my posts, had like a cool signature banner that would go with all of my posts, and so once I got to high school, I actually was freelance graphic designing and I made like some sweatshirts, I would do some posters and programs here and there for the local community, and I raised enough money to buy camera equipment and I kind of just took that and I ran with it and I was like YouTubing, you know how to make like these artsy shorts. I was watching videos on Vimeo, and so it's just always been a love of mine since I was young, almost went to college for film and television but unfortunately couldn't afford it. So I did a year at community college and again you, you know, 18 strong headed, super gung ho on, like I'm going to make movies and I'm going to make art that changes the world.
Speaker 1:And around that time, virtual reality was becoming a fairly big deal, with Facebook acquiring Oculus no-transcript, and I was like, oh, I get it, this is really powerful. It was just, it was insane. And so I dropped out of college, found myself a VR production company. It was like I am self-taught in Premiere, after Effects and like a few of these other programs, like I want to intern for you, but I need you to pay me to be your intern, but I want to work here, and that kind of like kicked off like my professional career in content creation. And that was really cool because ever since then I was able to basically work my way up from being the know the PA on set to being the camera assistant on set to eventually being the DP and then, after you know, doing it for like two or three years and the space was super small at the time.
Speaker 1:I just started directing and producing different content pieces, got to travel the world working on like documentary series for like Google. Got to travel the world working on like documentary series for like Google, vice and Samsung. So, like you know, I was always afraid I'm like fuck like, am I going to peak at 21? It's like that's like literally what it kind of what it felt like, and so I was in VR basically from like late 2014 to about the pandemic, um, and so it's like my entire life has been content and I think what's different about you know, my content in web 3 is like, for the first time, I'm now in front of the camera instead of behind, which has been a really weird shift, and like one that has, like, quite frankly, taken me several months to get used to and like just comfortable with, but like that's kind of you know the long and short of it. It's like I've always loved working with cameras. I've always loved video and photography and, um, you know, somehow found myself over here and like magic, jpeg, internet money land and it's great.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful spot to be in, like it's I, you know, I think I, I think I tweeted the other day is just you know I had. I was like I'm so glad I don't have to explain to like people in an office how my weekend went, you know, and it was a screenshot of me picking up my first Deaf Beef edition piece, Then it was the ticker rug and then it was, like you know, the screenshot from the made up telegram that the person rugged from and it's like I'm so happy. I don't have to explain any of this because it's just, it's the extreme of everything. Like you need you need, like it's that everything must be balanced, you know, and it was always so awkward to do that, but I'm happy that you found your way to magic internet money land, um, and magic internet picture land, um, uh, and I I just want to highlight because I, I, I very much relate to the.
Speaker 2:You know I, I did a little bit more college, like I, I think I finished halfway through my associates, but I had a very similar reaction. There was like one court. There was like through my associates, but I had a very similar reaction. There was like one court. There was like I remember the last course I ever took, and I was just said. I just have interests that are way more interesting than me spending time doing this. With the little free time I have at my job, I don't want to spend the rest of it doing this. I feel like it's a uh, not as good of a use of my time. Um, and I want to go, you know, play video games on the internet. That was like my thing. You know, that's kind of how I started. I started creating content on Twitch and live streaming and playing video games and like that was, you know, my little, my little shtick there and it was a lot of fun. And then, yeah, I'm sure we'll get into it. But, yeah, the magic internet land found me. I, yeah, the magic internet land found me.
Speaker 2:I like to say I don't really say I found it, because it was just very similar to you. Like I felt like I don't know if you thought this, I'd love to hear your take on it but I felt like right around 2018, 2019, like pre-pandemic, it really kind of felt like Web 2 was really peaking. It was like, okay, you can become a creator, but the opportunity has gotten just like almost abysmal. You know, like the it just and I just didn't. I kept searching for like something else. I was like this is cool, I'm down to, like I'm in this for the long haul, obviously because you know this is way funner than anything I've ever done. But yeah, it just felt like there was something different that needed to happen. It just felt like there was this inflection point of like okay, where, where is the attention going to move next? And like, what is next? There's no way this can be it on the internet. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, it's funny because, like and so my friend, a very good friend of mine, shilled me on Ethereum in like 2016. Like we were both running around the VR circles and you know, running around with our fucking camera or like literally. Like imagine like 18 GoPros like all tightly wound together on like this massive sphere and just like. It was hilarious. But she showed me on Ethereum and like what I got from her like literally, was something, something about a blockchain, something about Bitcoin. Like literally was something about a blockchain, something about Bitcoin, something about like decentralization and a public ledger and blah, blah, blah like future of finance. Like that was like all I really took away from that show. So I bought some and I you know we were joking before we started recording Like I told you, I have that Asian blood, that Asian gambling blood in me and I told my mom I'm like hey, mom, like so-and-so, just told me about this. She's really smart. Like I bought some. You know, maybe look at it, but don't put in more than you're willing to lose. Mom does not listen. Mom like starts trying to like day trade like Bitcoin on whatever. Trying to like day trade like Bitcoin on whatever I think we were on, like BitTrix, binance and like BitConnect, I don't know. There were like so many like kind of like really sketchy centralized exchanges that like hadn't been blocked by the US government yet. So, like that's where I was in. Like 2016, 2017, like 2018 was like Gotcha, like cool, like magic, internet money Cool. But like I'm going to go film this like weird ass documentary in like India, like peace you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like I never had like the desire to be that kind of creator. I think, like the track that I was trying to like put myself on was more along like the side of like you know, obviously get a ton of like commercial and brand work under your belt, but then, you know, start working on your own pitches, find a producer that's going to help, take that to the studios, get studio funding, like that's kind of like the track that I was trying to think on versus, like you know, let me put my content on YouTube, let me like upload these shorts on YouTube. I was thinking more along the lines of like, how do I get the biggest players in this space and at the time it was like Samsung, facebook, google plus whatever Hollywood studio I could attach to it to like fund this immersive like experience. Um might have it's so, like I, like the creator bubble, I don't think ever fully hit me until I was in web 3 and I'm like, wow, everyone is a influencer.
Speaker 1:And like, yeah, the word definitely now has like a little bit of like a dirty connotation. Like you know, and it's not lost on me, people will be like, oh, hey, jen, like we're looking for KOLs, or hey, jen, we're looking for influencers, and I'm like no, no, that's not me, I'm just here on the internet.
Speaker 2:I know, I know, I was literally about to say KOL is the new word for influencer, for people who don't want to have that dirty word being uttered again.
Speaker 1:KOL stands for? Like what Key opinion leader?
Speaker 2:It's the B2B term for influencer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they don't have to say influencer in like a Fortune 500 company, they can just say KOL. And it sounds like you know TAM and it sounds like you know MAU and it sounds like all these other like little three letter acronyms.
Speaker 1:ROI yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it sounds nothing. There's nothing scummy about it when you don't know, because even in the very beginning, when I started working with Schiller, I was like, what the fuck is a KOL? Like like I didn't know what that was until I, like I had to Google it, um, but yeah, it's, it's still not lost on me, that like um, that still exists. But uh, what one thing I've noticed here is that I think it's really interesting is a lot of the people who are like the best if you want to call them quote unquote influencers or kls or whatever the fuck you want to call it is people that are not trying to be that like like. I've noticed that, like like one of my friends, it's like d's like he could give two shits about, like wanting to be, you know, a kol, but like he just shares his honest opinions and calls things like it is and that's great, you know, um, yeah, and and. But he, like could give a fuck less about being an influencer, like that's not what he wants to be, um, so I don't know it's. Uh, it is very interesting.
Speaker 2:So one thing that pops into my head is where you're talking videos, you know camera work content in a space. That is, you know, like half anon doxed, maybe a little bit more on the, on the, on the prior, you know, I guess, how do you see? Maybe I want to put a pin in that question, maybe come back to it, but when it comes to, uh, we're seeing a lot of growth on like the L2s and super chain and like pods and pods and all this stuff is like putting media on chain. Zora has been a huge proponent of that. What's your, I guess what to you makes sense for like the future of media? Like, is all media going to be on the blockchain? If so, why? What are some of the most interesting use cases or like things that you've thought about? Because, like, I'm kind of, we're kind of like in that boat where we're thinking about it and we definitely see it. But, yeah, as someone in media, we'd just love to know, like, maybe, your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I would love for the space, long-term, to move to a place where, like video creators like myself can easily upload to the chain we forever own. That it's not sitting on, like some big companies, like you know, cloud servers out in like I don't know Mississippi or Nebraska or wherever the heck these data centers are. But, like I think the reality is is like right now, with where we are. You know, that's kind of like a nice to have, it's not.
Speaker 1:I think there are a lot of other things that kind of need to come on chain first and, like you know, I recently started fucking around and finding out with Farcaster and Warpcast and that has actually been really cool because I'm like dude, this is, like you know, a decentralized Twitter and a decentralized Reddit come together and have a baby and just like it's incredible, yeah, but like for reasons completely outside of Web3, like I'm compelled as a user to use it. But then it's like I put on this like creator hat where, you know, right now I feel like I have to create, like my life depends on it because it does, like I made the choice to like move into like this whole creator media thing full time, and so there is definitely pressure, and I think what's hard right now, when I think about like where decentralized media is, especially as it relates to creators, is like, at the end of the day, if the platform isn't helping you with discoverability, if it's not helping you increase your reach and your distribution, then it's like it's just another platform to manage. And and it's like, quite frankly, it's like I already struggle to manage X for work, youtube for work, and like I barely post on my personal Instagram account anymore. You know what I mean. It's like I'm not really looking for another platform.
Speaker 1:So I think, like, long term, obviously, things being on chain, us having, at the end of the day, absolute complete ownership over our content, is like super important, but like it's, I think there are other things that need to happen before like that becomes a really compelling use case, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:That does, and I and I think I've heard like in yeah, it makes sense. And also there's a there's a divided, a divide that I've often thought about too, where it's like's like okay, ownership and distribution, or like ownership and distribution are like at the top of the list, but when it comes to youtube, you have one of those like they have a massive distribution arm, but you don't own what you put on there and the algorithm consistent, consistently changes and the rules that are being enforced consistently change, especially when it comes to videos being taken down, when it comes to sensitive content, what's considered that, what's not? So those are the two things that I see and I've often thought about. I guess, how do you solve the problem from a business standpoint of allowing the creator to own their content, providing good distribution, and you make money too, like cause, like you know, the reality is that, like, these platforms have to make money to continue to distribute content, you know, and so I don't think we've really cracked the nut on, like okay, like what's the best model that makes sense, and I don't. I mean, maybe I'm being bearish or maybe we just haven't seen, you know, a good use case built, but like, I feel like that's always going to be a constant moving goalpost. Like I don't, I just don't know.
Speaker 2:Like I for me, personally, I guess I'll share like my take on what I think is exciting about it is that, specifically with Web3, it feels you know three, it feels you know putting any sort of media on chain kind of feels just native, like it just feels comfy to have like a historical record of you know things that I've done. I've said the people I've talked to, um the stories that were, that were talked about, um in each different, whether it's a clip or of audio, podcasts or video, um it just feels natural to have that because I believe in the EVM chain, you know, in like for like a super, like I don't think it's gonna, I think it'll outlive me, like I genuinely think that. So it makes sense that you know companies. Like I never thought, put it this way, I never thought Facebook, I never thought MySpace was gonna go away. It almost seemed like too big to fail Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it did. You know what if that happened with YouTube? You know, like, what if that happened with Twitter? What if? So I always think about for that purpose alone. Maybe it's not, maybe they don't have any distribution tools but like, and maybe it's just something you put on there for provenance sake. Maybe that's really the only use case right now, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I think, like, as you were speaking, like something that I started thinking about is like, censorship.
Speaker 1:I know there are a lot of creators out there that either get accounts suspended or content taken down with, like, really no clear indication of why, Apart from, like, you violated the community guidelines, which, like, is not clear at all yeah yeah, yeah, but at the same time, like I think, yeah, I think like this idea of like, censor, censorship, resistant content could be the thing that like bumps the need for decentralized media to like just be higher on people's priority list, including mine, quite frankly. But yeah, it's just. You know it's a tricky one because at the same time we're also like what shit coin presale is happening right now? Like attention is just so split and you know, as a human, you can only have your attention on so many things. But I should probably spend a little bit more time on the decentralized media side.
Speaker 2:It's just again, it's like something worth thinking about, like because there's ways in which it does make sense.
Speaker 2:But you also look at, okay, like we want censorship resistant media, like that's a pretty, you know we want, we like censorship resistant money, so it should make sense that we that sense, that we want that with media as well. But you know, then there's like we've all seen the ugly side of, of, you know, our industry. What happens when that content is censored, like not censored, you know, and like I don't know, there's there's part of me that like, there's part of me that's for that and there's part of me that's like, well, if we can't have it one way and the other way at the same time, if it's censorship resistant, it's censorship resistant. Or is there a middle ground, maybe with what Farcaster's doing, where you have the protocol, the decentralized protocol, and then you can build different apps on top of it to where, say, if the algorithm on Warpcast doesn't suit your needs, there's like 10 other apps built on top of Farcaster that may suit your needs. I don't know Exactly, you know but that seems like a cool little middle ground.
Speaker 2:But what does that look like with media? I don't know, maybe we're getting too into weeds, but just like things I've thought about and interested to hear your thoughts on that, because it's yeah, so okay, I'm going to go back to the pin that I put in a little earlier In a space that's like you're super into video but yet there's a large part of crypto culture is anon, do you, I guess? Do you see that changing in a future, like maybe five to 10 years down the road, when it comes to video creation, when it comes to, you know, say, crypto does all the things we say it's going to do and there's like a big wave of adoption in the next 10 to 20 years? You know, have you thought about, like, video creation in the metaverse, like what that means to you, or like, have you always kind of thought about kind of just videotaping like the physical space?
Speaker 1:If you know what I mean, yeah, I mean because I was in VR, like we thought a lot about the metaverse, Like it was always, like you know, about the metaverse Like it was.
Speaker 1:It was always, like you know, I always considered it. I'm like it's a spectrum of interaction. On one end of the spectrum, you have, like things that are captured, that are capturing the real world, and you can only move your head around, and at the other end is the metaverse, where you have full, like six degrees of freedom and whatnot. I think like the whole docsxed, undoxed thing, like I get why people want to be private. I chose to just be doxed in this space because I had not to toot my own horn or pat myself on the back but, like at a very young age, I was coming from a pretty established career and, like another emerging technology and I'm just like why would I, you know, try to bury that and not? This is very much just like a continuation of my journey exploring tech. Like maybe I'm a masochist, you know, like I don't know, but you know, but you know. I think the thing is is AI and deep fakes are getting so good that I definitely see in the next five to 10 years if there are creators out there that you know have a
Speaker 1:story to tell or like have a really compelling way to break something down. I can totally see them using, you know, ai generated avatars to create that content, while keeping themselves anonymous and, you know, undoxed. I also like get the appeal of wanting to be anonymous because, like I, for the most part, have only met wonderful people in the space and I've been very fortunate and blessed in that sense. Yeah, but there are some crazy ones, like to be clear, there are some like psychotic ones that will try to dox your address, that will try to like send shit to your home. Like I had a little bit of a run-in with something like this, uh, last may, and it's it's like one of those things that it's like, yeah, I get it if you have a family and you have kids. I probably wouldn't necessarily be like let me go on video.
Speaker 2:Like you know, yeah, yeah. It's it's, it's really. I mean yeah, cause like I've chosen it's. It's cool to hear your path, cause like that makes sense. That's a use case I hadn't really heard of. Like cause it's cool to hear your path because that makes sense. That's a use case I hadn't really heard of Because this was like an extension of where you were coming before. It's just an addition to, and not necessarily a replacement of, like. With me, my background was in legal technology, being client success.
Speaker 2:There wasn't really like a background there and for me, though, I've always my face on on Twitter and, like I've done video podcasts in the past, but, like I do like the idea of like keeping my name private and like that that is something kind of cool and becoming the pseudonym that, like I, I came up with when I first started the brand, that's actually allowed me to become more of an authentic version of myself than you the person who created that name, you know could have ever been.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's where I kind of like look at like this, you know, and this weaves into, like digital collectibles and ownership of identity and all these different like fun, fun little things that we get to play around with here. So it's cool to hear like that, you know, like one of the reasons why you remained, like where you remained, who you are and why you show your face on video, um, and the appeal of, like what it could look like in the future. Um, so I guess the one thing I wanted to ask you as well and pardon me if this is, too just all over the place, but it's how my brain operates, um, all good Is, you know, when it comes to your future in media? Like I just love to maybe know how maybe this industry changed the trajectory of that and like if you still have some of the same long term goals that you had prior to coming into the space.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's pretty interesting, like if you would have told me six years ago like, hey, jen, when you start entering into your late twenties, um, guess what You're gonna like make videos and put them on Twitter, and that's what you go Like, that's what you're going to do every week. I would have looked at you like you were a crazy person. I like just walked away. Like I never a crazy person. I just walked away. I never saw doing what I'm doing for myself. But coming into Web3 and like so I got shilled on ETH in like 2016,. Right, got my mom into it, and then the 2018 crash happened. And then we were both just like, oh, fuck, like oh, we thought we were going to be rich and you know, know, I was young at the time and I was up like a couple thousand dollars and I'm like this is a lot of money to me, like I'm you know, I'm gonna cash out some of it and my mom kept degenning.
Speaker 1:And then my god, mom gets fishing, hacked, scammed, whatever you want to call it by like a fake finance email, she ends up losing like 70 grand at the bottom of like 2018 with like holdings in bitcoin, eth, xrp and like all of this stuff, and it kind of just like left a super nasty taste in like my mouth, her mouth, and so like at that point, I sold out of all of my crypto. Um, my mom pretty much got completely out too, and so like I really came back into this space in like 2021. And I came back with like one. All of my productions have been canceled because we're in the pandemic and people are like yeah, that quarter of a million dollar project we were doing with you is no longer relevant. Like it is just like not happening, which is totally fine. You know, like the world was shutting down.
Speaker 2:It was weird.
Speaker 1:But I was kind of sitting here and I was like I don't think I'm ever going to be able to afford a home in Los Angeles if I don't do something that makes my money work for me. Like I want to start investing and like exploring, like how to meaningfully grow my money.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, what was that crypto thing again? And it was like that's what brought me back into the space, was trying to come in and do it a second time. But it's like I want to understand the fundamentals, like I really want to figure out why. Why is this the future of finance Totally? And once I wrapped my head around this idea of self-custody, this idea of decentralization, this idea that, like, I now get to choose what financial opportunities I want to choose, was like a really big aha moment for me.
Speaker 1:You look at like the outside world and you just kind of see how the outside world operates. You're like it just becomes very clear that like the system was not set up in a way for most of us to win. Yeah, like it is. When you come from nothing and if you're building your life from nothing, it is incredibly difficult to do in a way that's meaningful. And once I started to see like that inequality and I'm like I don't want to, I'm almost tempted to call it injustice. I don't know if it necessarily is injustice, but it's like I don't know systemic.
Speaker 1:Just like you know, the system's failing most of the citizens that are alive on this planet. Um, it's really hard to unsee, like if you were to be like, hey, jen, you can go make a movie right now, but you would need to leave crypto forever and not touch it. Like we'll give you all the funds to make like your dream project, but you could, you can't come back to crypto Like I wouldn't do it. Like there's just something about being here that truly feels like we're a part of something that's, you know, revolutionary and that can actually truly change the world knock on wood, hopefully for the better in the coming decades. And it's like I want to stay and I want to be a part of it.
Speaker 1:So the long-term goals have, like, definitely shifted and, like you know, it's one of those things where, when you take a moment and kind of like reflect on, like where am I now and where do I want to be, like one thing that I think I've kind of learned about myself and this was actually like a pretty hard pill to swallow was that, you know, when I got into more into tech, I was, like you know, maybe one day I I don't think I meant to be like a startup founder, necessarily like, and that was like just like a weird pill to swallow, you know yeah, but it was like once I realized that I'm like I have I, I also realized I'm like I am.
Speaker 1:I've also realized I'm like I've always been described by my mentors and friends as a Swiss Army nice, and I have a really interesting wide range of skill sets, specifically in media content production and comms, and I've learned a lot at every single company I've been a part of. I actually think, like the thing that would be the most meaningful for me to do is to figure out how can I position myself in this space to help as many incredible builders that I personally believe in succeed, and so I think leaning into the media side of that obviously definitely helps. And then, on the flip side, like the long-term goal has shift, has shifted from like how do I make movies, film and television to like how can I get myself situated where I can eventually become an angel investor and advise?
Speaker 1:yeah so it's like sorry, that was like a really long-winded response to like let me tell you about how my goals have shifted.
Speaker 2:No, there was a few points where like no, and the more this conversation goes like, the more you'll understand that like that's exactly what I enjoy the most. I love those because there was a moment, there was a couple moments, where it gave me goosebumps and specifically around the realization, and I think it's starting to go away, but like, there's still traces of I don't think it'll fully go away, but it's not as popularized as it was. Like, say, you know, between 2015 and 2020 is like the hustle culture. You know, like be your own boss and like you know it was a. It was a very exciting time and it was really easy. You know it was a lot easier to do it. Then markets were good, markets were frothy. You know, like be your own boss and like you know, it was a. It was a very exciting time and it was really easy. You know it was a lot easier to do it. Then Markets were good, Markets were frothy. You know people were still kind of figuring things out.
Speaker 2:But you know, and I know he gets again and we've both we both laughed about it in the beginning and I know he gets a lot of flack in the crypto community, but Gary V was a big part of like my early content journey, you know, and like I consumed a lot of it and that was one of the things he's like it's okay not to be a founder.
Speaker 2:Like you can be number one, number two, number three at like a Facebook and still live a fucking amazing life and do exactly what you want to do.
Speaker 2:But most people aren't really willing to like admit that, and I think I had a very similar boat to, to, to your, to your story is that, while I enjoyed, I will always and forever cherish these one-to-one interactions.
Speaker 2:Um, I on the business side, I just knew that I maybe didn't know enough and it just wasn't in me to kind of figure it out, and so I just manifested a team while everyone else is trying to manifest, you know, like being their own boss. I was like give me a fucking dream team that I can be a part of and like I had an experience with that in the corporate world and I knew what that felt like and I and I was like there's gotta be the same quality of people in the industry that I love that can support me doing what I love doing, and that's literally how I found Schiller, and it was like this kind of beautiful like, but if I didn't have that epiphany around, like not wanting to be the founder, who knows it may, that door may have opened and I may not have walked through it. You know like it's really funny.
Speaker 1:I think it's like you know this isn't necessarily related to crypto or anything, but I think it's an easier pill to swallow when you take time to actually be reflective about where you are in life and like what is important to you, and that looks different for everyone. You know, like I think you kind of nailed, like nailed it with like hustle culture being really big like 2015 to 2020. Like yeah, that that was me. Like I would sleep in the office, like I would I sleep in the office, have a gym down the street from the office that I would shower at and then like change into and then like go back to the office, and it's just one of those things that I realized that you know it's. I love it. I think, because I'm first generation American and because I saw how hard my mom hustled, like I will always have a little bit of that in me.
Speaker 1:Like I will always have a little bit of that in me, but now, as like an older adult, I'm like yeah unless, like I am choosing to like stay up and like continue working on something because I'm super excited about it, like not on board, with someone telling me like oh, this is a urgent deadline due and it's due in 24 hours.
Speaker 2:Like, no thanks, right, right, Right, urgent deadline due and it's due in 24 hours. Like, right, no thanks, right, right, right, yeah, I, I couldn't agree more with you and that's uh, it's interesting to find that out, though, you know, um, and who knows, maybe one day, like I've had great teachers and and, and great I've been, I've been blessed to have a great community of people who are founders, who do know what the fuck they're doing, and, like I learned by osmosis and who knows, maybe that one day could meet, but like it's not, like what I'm banking on, like I've literally found, like I found what I was looking for, you know, um, to get me to a spot where I want to go. So it's and I, I just I like to linger on that, you know. Especially I'm glad that you had that moment too, because I just think it needs to be a little bit more normalized, um, outside of cryptos, just being a fucking human being and trying to survive on this planet.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, it's like it's too many people are sacrificing their own happiness to chase an ideal that maybe they don't really want, but they're just too afraid to like, not admit it. Um, yeah, it's hard. I mean it's hard when you like. Live in a world where you have 69 different social media apps and ways to communicate with people Like it's hard not to, so I love that.
Speaker 1:I mean being a. It's like being a tech founder and even just working at a tech startup is not for everyone. No, like, some people like literally just are not cut to do it, and that's totally okay, because the demands of it are insanely different than you'll find anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it is, and like that was where that's like that little niche where I found like I fit in. I wanted to be a part of the startup culture, but maybe not be the founder, and it's like because I loved, you know, and that's what, that's literally what Shiller is, you know. So it's like that's like literally my utopia. But you're right, and I'm glad you brought this up because it's something that like I'm actually going to tweet about this in a different format, but I know different format.
Speaker 2:But, um, I know, like I look at crypto as like one big startup like I, that there's this conceptually like the like, after working in a startup environment before this, like there's so many similarities to what we're building here and and anyone who's trying to build something meaningful except this is just on a global scale, 24 hours a day um, and there is like a million verticals that people are building. But one thing I've really noticed, whether it's specifically on the art side or the collector side or even on the finance side, is people are coming in, like people are coming in with their basic skill set, but they're not willing to branch out to learn about the rest of the ecosystem, and then, when something like meme, coins pop off. You know it's easy to like shit on it, but it's like that's part of the culture.
Speaker 1:Like it's like Dude. Memes are fully an asset class. Like I don't know who that angers, but like memes are here to stay. They've created a lot of economic value for a lot of people. Like yeah, but I get it, because I I used to be like that too. Like when I came back in 2021, grinded on shit coins. Um was always like kind of embarrassed by it, you know, and like I actually my first job in web3 was working for like a meme shit coin on Binance Smart Chain that like they got to a point where they started making smart contracts and deploying to apps and I think I was like very naive and wide eyed of like oh, this is going to be the next big thing and yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Definitely was wrong. There were a couple of things that I couldn't change or fix, that weren't like really in my control, but you know, so I was always like kind of embarrassed that like that was like my first job in crypto and like I left it on my LinkedIn and that's fine and all. But then I was like yeah, like stay away from shit coins, like oh. But now I'm like yeah, stay away from shit coins, but now I'm like no, the more time I've spent in this space and once you start to, I know everyone talks about culture, everyone talks about attention, but do you actually start to break down what does that mean? And you've realized that culture drives the attention, attention drives the volume, volume drives the traction and it's like this huge cycle and it's like meme coins are an asset class and we're seeing even more ecosystems.
Speaker 1:I think like Avalanche now has like a meme coin fund to help meme coins launch on Avalanche Like it's like you're not going to find this anywhere else in any other industry.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I even told my accountant I was like next year's taxes are going to be an absolute trip. When you look at, you know everything that's on whatever.
Speaker 1:8949 that you're going to file for me.
Speaker 2:There is some redacted shit that I got into. But you're right, though, Like, and I like that. I like that breakdown. You know that. You just like spelled out there because if you look back at the 2021 cycle, it's very similar. You know. It's like you know, and there's just a natural flow of attention. And like who? I'm just sitting here, as you said that. I was like like when I first got involved with just sharing memes on Facebook and MySpace and shit like that back in the day, it's like never in my life would I have thought that these would have become monetizable and be their own asset class. It's the most ridiculous and like but yet also not ridiculous thing ever like. Yeah, it's both uh, and that's that's the paradox and that's the best part about it. And it's like what makes people resistant to crypto. But also, once they get it, it's like holy shit, like this makes. This is just inevitable. You know I will.
Speaker 1:I I also think like I've been seeing a few takes on the timeline lately that are like you guys keep sending the pre-sale wallets and you wonder why retail people don't take us seriously. And I'm kind of like, actually, on the contrary, a whole of my family members that got into crypto got in because they wanted to buy some shit coin on some obscure exchange and, like you know, they fucked around, they found out some of them might have made a bag, others like definitely got wrecked, but all of a sudden, the next thing you know, they're all holding Bitcoin and ETH and at least putting some money into like the major alts. So like if you want to sit here and be like, tradfi won't take us seriously because we're here like shit coining. I'm kind of like I don't think TradFi is going to be like, yeah, we're not passing the Ethereum ETF because of all of the meme coin trading happening on ethereum and the ethereum l2s. Like I don't think trantfi gives a shit. Like quite frankly?
Speaker 2:no, I don't. I think the only person that gives a shit is the. Is the um? The, the your typical vc investor meme that's been showing up on the timeline everywhere? He's got his vest and the coffee cup.
Speaker 2:He might be the one who cares, but, like, not everyone else. And you're right, Like I love that you touch on that, because I didn't really find my niche until I found something that I really cared about. And in the beginning you know what? Like I came in here off of people's 69 million dollar art sale and I was like, okay, how do you buy a picture on the internet? Like, why did you pay that much money for it? Like how the fuck do you just like not right click, save it? Like how do you prove owner? Like all these questions happen.
Speaker 2:And so it's like the economic incentive was the, was the hook, you know, and I got bait.
Speaker 2:You know I got baited by that.
Speaker 2:But but then I stayed for the friends and I stayed for the culture and I stayed for the art and I became an accidental art collector and I found a little niche that I can make a difference in an impact.
Speaker 2:And so I think you're you're spot on. Like when people find something, even if it's only for the economic incentive, not everyone's going to become a degenerate like you and me, but like there's going to be a few of them that are and a few of them that may bring their talents in, and a few of them that may figure out like, oh, this is like the weirdo community that I was looking for, you know, or this is the place that I want to. Like this is a new, a new path for me to do something completely different Because very similar to you. Like, yeah, you know, when I think of like a traditional job, it just like doesn't compute to me. Like after being in this space for like three years, I'm like there's no way I can do anything else. Like this is impossible to leave once you figure it out.
Speaker 1:You're like, you want me to come into the office at nine and I can't leave until six and I get like 30 minutes for a lunch break. What? No, way no way, yeah, no, thank you.
Speaker 2:No way. So you know, like to the point, like people like to say TradFi isn't involved in this or like they're going to TradFi. So one thing I really I follow a lot of DC, like I follow DC Investor pretty heavily and like I enjoy most of his takes, but like the one thing that I think TradFi truly gives a fuck about is staking.
Speaker 1:You know, like the fact that you can stake things like and yield like that is like the killer app for tradfi and and then, like, you get like some sort of like token in exchange, but then like, oh, you can then take that token and like, lend it out and earn more yield. You just start to see how these crypto rails does truly make capital move more efficiently than it does in the TradFi world. 100%.
Speaker 2:And you can do it after five o'clock Eastern yeah.
Speaker 1:If you really wanted to, you could even do it from your phone.
Speaker 2:If you really wanted to, Totally totally wanted to you could even do it from your phone, like if you really wanted to, totally, totally. So this brings us to really the heart of like, what you spend a lot of your time creating content on. So I guess I'm curious. Like you know, you spend your time primarily around, you know, just the more the defy and the finance side of thing you know. I think it would help to kind of similar to like how you got into the space of like, why media like, like you know, why did you choose to spend most of your time creating finance content?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in case this wasn't clear, I don't come from a traditional finance background. Sometimes when I'm talking to people who have triad five backgrounds, I'm like I maybe understood 10% of what you were saying and I'll like jot down some notes that I'll Google and chat GPT later and it's like try to wrap my head around it. But basically I think I'll start with like kind of like getting understanding NFTs, of like getting understanding nfts, because I think this was really the big thing for me was, um, you know, I had friends that minted board apes. When board apes first came out and I remember seeing it on social media and on instagram and I'm like what is that? I don't, I don't really fully get it. And then seeing apes you know sell for ridiculous amounts of money months later I was just like still don't get it, I don't understand what a non-fungible token is. But then I actually took a job as the director of marketing at an NFT lending platform and it was really there that I realized that, oh wait, a second Majority of assets that exist in our day-to-day lives whether that's our car deed, the title to our houses are non-fungible in nature, and so we're starting to see this shift of like real world assets come on chain, like there are a lot of trad five firms, like you know, fucking around with tokenizing different things and testing around on different subnets, et cetera and it was this was my big aha moment was like, okay, if I really believe that the future of finance is going to be built on blockchain rails and it's going to be built using web3 technology, it only makes sense that all of these assets that come on chain are going to probably come on chain and eventually be tokenized in the form of like nfts or some sort of token standard now that we have like 404s, like some sort of token standard that takes advantage of like the NFTs that we know and love today.
Speaker 1:Huh, okay, if all that stuff gets tokenized as NFTs, like what is going like how are we going to really transact with it? Aha, nft finance and like that like really simple thought process is like what has made me so freaking bullish on like NFT lending, nft perps, etc. Because, like you know, we can sit and giggle and be like holy, yeah, does that translate into the future of finance? Well, it's like. Well, maybe when tokenized real estate really takes off We've seen a few loans on chain against tokenized pieces of land or homes, but it's like when tokenized real estate becomes the norm, I can use a peer-to-peer lending platform to get a loan.
Speaker 1:And I think all of these builders that are here building within the NFT finance vertical, all of these I don't want to call them JPEG collections, because I do hold some, but all of these collections that are here today that we know and love, I think are really just like the test case for what happens when, like, bigger assets come on chain, like the fact that we have NFTs that have a value, you know, over $100,000 is really cool because it shows that it's like, even with this, like you know, jpeg of a penguin that is tokenized, look at like the value of money that's being transferred, and it's just all a battle case for what I think massive market adoption will look like in the next 10 to 20 years.
Speaker 2:I think you opened up a door there for me, because I think having the context of the current assets we have today as a use case or as like a test case or as like the guinea pig, like that didn't really. I think that context window like that really helped kind of see, okay, like this is this is like I hate to say it, but like we are still so fucking early, you know, and that, yeah, I mean like to me, punks make a lot of sense. You know, I've seen a lot of great punk loans. I've seen a lot of great squiggle loans. You know, uh, people borrowing against different. You know, like, I know c drays recently did an autoglyphs loan, uh, you know, and pudgy penguins, like it's, it's a cool, it's a cool use case.
Speaker 2:Um, it's got to be interesting to like be able to risk, you know, that high value of an asset this early, you know, to be able to do that. But I think you're absolutely right and I think once people start seeing the value of it, I guess that's, that's a, and if you don't have a lot of insight maybe on this side, like feel free to just tell me. But like, like, what do you think I guess in your, like, in the research that you've done, like what, like what is different about tokenizing? Like an online, like you're like a home deed online or a car note or whatever, whatever the case may be. Like I guess I'm trying to like figure out what is really different about it. Like I I just I feel like there's a lot of differences, but like I don't own a home, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean I it like I. I just I feel like there's a lot of differences, but like I don't own a home, so I don't know um, I mean I don't to be clear, I don't own a home either you know, I'm still.
Speaker 1:I'm still grinding on my shit coins trying to trying to make that money grow, yeah, yeah, um, but so, like the rwa tokenization stuff is pretty interesting, so so I think it was Connor from Metastreet that put out a graphic that I was like, oh, finally like a better way or a better framework to look at these assets through. But it's basically like a spectrum of reinforcement and on one end of the spectrum, you have like assets that are fully reinforceable on chain, that are fully reinforceable on chain. So, like you know, stick a punk there, because a punk is like crypto native and it's like if it's in a smart contract and you don't repay, that shit's getting liquidated and there's nothing you can do about it. And then on the other end of the spectrum, you have like off-chain reinforce or off-chain enforcement, where you know, maybe a dispute happens and you do have to go to like a court of law to settle, uh, and so it's very, very early still and obviously real estate is a real world asset that, like, quite frankly, would still need to be enforced like off chain. Um, you know, if there is a dispute, it would have to go definitely down the legal proceedings. But, like, even with where we are now.
Speaker 1:Once you tokenize my understanding based off of like talking to Fabrica, getting a chat with like Rupestock on-chain one, you're kind of able to skip over like all of the crazy closing costs. You don't need to wait 30 days for your house to close, it's just instant. Once it's actually tokenized and trading or you're lending against it, that's fine. And in the case of Fabrica, because Fabrica mostly tokenizes land, so I'm sure you've driven around different states and you're all like what the fuck is all of this land? I wonder who owns it. Why aren't they developing anything? It looks like a wasteland out here.
Speaker 2:In Texas there's a lot of that. Yeah, that's where I live, but that land?
Speaker 1:doesn't that land inherently have value? Like, don't plots of land here and there sell for, like you know, $60,000 here, $70,000 here, and maybe all you can do is camp on that piece of land. Or maybe you're lucky and you have like a permit and you can drill. But like the reality is is, if you go to any traditional bank to try to take a loan out against that land, they're going to be like, yeah, this isn't worth our time and they're going to shoo you away.
Speaker 1:So now, all of a sudden, you have this like piece of land that is worth something but, you're not necessarily able to do much with it because, like, banks aren't letting you leverage that as an asset really in any way, or if they do, it's going to take you months to get approved. Why not tokenize it? Stick it on a peer-to-peer NFT lending platform and be like I'm looking for a $30,000 loan against this plot of land for a year, and it's like if no one meets your terms, you're at least potentially going to get other offers that maybe will fit with your needs. You know what I mean, like, right, um, I think that's a really, really powerful use case that is okay, that that really helps, because, like this, this is, this is territory.
Speaker 2:This is exactly what I was hoping like selfishly, you know to learn here because, like I look at all this nft fight stuff and I look at all this NFT stuff and I look at, like the finance arms, and I'm just like trying to wrap my head around like what kind of like the way I found this space, I'm like what kind of like niche in this vertical can I attach? What makes sense to me? You know, and and and culture makes sense, but like there was always this like disconnect between, like you know, like punks, and then a home Like there feels like that just never. Or even a piece of land Like it. Just it felt very kind of abstract. So I think that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:And the way I'm understanding this is that, like you know, time is the most finite. I mean resource that we all possess. I mean resource that we all possess and you know, regardless of how great or not great the bank is, like you're right If it's not worth their time to do it, like they're not going to do it, and then you miss out on an opportunity there, or, you know, two people miss out on an opportunity because the intermediary, who has been the only way to really facilitate that, is out of the game. They're not going to play. So, yeah, that makes okay, like that, like for real, that really, that really makes sense.
Speaker 1:The second question go ahead oh, sorry I'm, I just want to like add on to that because I think, like the other thing that we're seeing too is like tokenized luxury goods going on chain.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, I yeah like I advise for a company called Kettle and they're all about tokenized luxury watches, whether that's lending and borrowing and a buy-sell market. Yeah, and it was one of those things that it's like. I looked into consumer lending. The consumer lending market is fucking massive, but there's a lot of problems within it. There's a lot of predatory rates and it's like not only with these online consumer lenders, but also like pawn shops, like if, yeah, you know what I mean and it's like crypto rails makes that more efficient, it's going to give you better rates.
Speaker 1:Like there's just like a lot of lot of these use cases that I'm seeing that it's like okay, while that to be what opens the floodgates, um, especially on things like the smaller things, like luxury goods coming on chain, etc. I think real estate and some of these other asset classes will obviously require, you know, regulatory clarity and like clearance and things to be recognized in a court of law. But it's just, it's exciting. Like what other industry can you say like yeah, I think I'm watching the future of like how we're going to transact and interact being built in real time, and I'm seeing it all play out on my Twitter or my X feed. Like it's insane.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I, you touched on a very, very, a, very, a very meaningful part of this industry that I love is like, regardless of your vertical, like you watch it all being built simultaneously, and that's kind of the. What I meant like by the startup is like, if you're not curious, and all the ways in which everything fucking connects to each other, like you're missing out. You know, um, and that's that's such a great point. And like, to me, the tokenized luxury goods, like I I look at you know with where a lot of, like, a lot of people, um, in the early collectible communities that own board apes, like pudgies or you know some of the early, you know assets, like a lot of them are sneaker flippers and like I feel, like the tokenization of sneakers and rare sneakers, um, that that's going to be massive. Like I feel like that would be one of the biggest no brainers to like make it make sense to other people.
Speaker 2:Um, the second question I wanted to ask you, um, and it's always something that, like, I've never been able to get a clear answer, um, and it's like when I see these loans being taken out, we're talking about, you know, taking out a loan against an asset, whether it's a punk, whether it's a luxury good, whether it's a pudgy penguin, why would you want to take out a loan, like what would like if you were to do that in a hypothetical world? Why would you want to take out a loan against, like, say, a crypto punk? Like what would you use that money for and why would you choose such a high interest rate to like pay that back like? Aren't you kind of like? That's been like the disconnect for me?
Speaker 1:it's like what do you do with that? You know like, why would you do that typically? I don't know this off the top of my head because I'm not looking um at the charts right now, but crypto punks are. I consider them like blue chip, nft-fi collateral. Usually the interest rates on punks is not super high in comparison to the interest rate that I paid to take a loan out on my little pudgy. So I think it was G-Money who took the million dollar punk loan out against.
Speaker 2:I saw that yeah.
Speaker 1:Was it an alien punk punk? I don't know, because I was just like that is really high ltv and he's like this punk is rare and I was like, oh, I did not know that. Um, I forgot which one, uh, and I think the starting interest rate was like 10 or something like that. It's for half a year.
Speaker 1:Uh, he could easily take that money and, uh, go lend it on like a different lending platform or stick it into a pool that's maybe earning 20 yield, so that way he's actually able to take advantage of the liquidity of his punk without selling it and pursue another opportunity where he's going to come out in profit and he'll he knows he'll be able to pay back the loan and the interest and still have money. So, like, that's one use case I'll give you. I'll give you, um, a recent nft loan that I've been doing and like my use case for it. So, um, I told you that. You know I'm like creating, like my life depends on it, because it kind of is, because I was like let me go do this full time without any real game plan apart from like a.
Speaker 1:Twitter account. It's fine, Like I'll figure it out. Yeah, so I actually had to sell out of like quite a bit of my crypto holdings to just like keep myself afloat, a bit of my crypto holdings to just like keep myself afloat like during during this like time, and, like you know, I'm finally at a point where you know I do have more money coming in, which is really nice.
Speaker 1:So I'm like reloading the bags, buying the dip, all that fun stuff yep but I had an azuki elemental, I had a gold bean and I bought a little pudgy and I just saw solana start to have like some really fun meme coin plays and I was like fuck, I'm completely sidelined right now. I literally have like zero capital to deploy. Like I can't bring any money on chain, like everything else is locked up and staking. Like I need to figure something out. And I was like you know what? I'm going to take a loan out on my little pudgy.
Speaker 1:Little pudgies had just gone from half an ETH to one ETH and I was able to get I think it was like a $1,300 loan for 60 days. I took that $1,300, bridged it over to Solana, bought Popcat, made a nice little bag on Solana, repaid my loan, took the rest of my profits and stuck that into more staking. And then recently again I was like huh, there's like more D-gen plays. Oh, interesting, the floor of Little Pudgies is up to two e. Like I really like my little pudgy, I don't want to sell, but I could use some extra liquidity. So I then took a 1.4 eath loan against my little pudgy, which at the time was worth two e, and I was like you know what if the floor drops below 1.4 e I'm not going to pay this loan back. This will be a hedge.
Speaker 1:So that's another strategy that a lot of people do is the moment they see NFT floors pumping on an asset class that they really like they might take a loan out against it as a hedge, because now, little pudgies, I think it's like 1.1. I don't know, I haven't checked Blair in a few days, but it's like 1.1. I don't know, I haven't checked Blur in a few days, but it's like I didn't even need to sell that NFT and I still got 1.4 ETH of value from it.
Speaker 2:Totally so you're still profiting from it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm still profiting from it and I was able to take that liquidity immediately and go do other stuff with it. So it's mostly the biggest use case to borrow is going to be because you want capital to go do something to make you even more money, or you're sidelined, or you're hedging, like.
Speaker 2:There's a bunch of different reasons why to borrow, but I think like those two are probably the main ones, at least for like the responsible you know borrowers are probably the main ones, at least for, like the responsible, you know borrowers, right, right, okay, so, yeah, I'm sure there's like quite a few degenerate use cases that people will use that for. But no, that makes a lot of sense because it kind of goes, just goes to show you like where I spend most of my time and it's more of like in the one-on-one art world and it's like in the gender of art world And's like art. If you just take away the blockchain and what we're building here, it's like it's a pretty illiquid asset, you know, like it doesn't. It takes a long time to appreciate. It doesn't really move that much, um, you know, outside of some crazy phenomenon event, if it's under 10 to 20 years, you know, um, so that kind of shows you like where, like, okay, like this, this makes a lot of sense and it makes sense like why I just have never been able to understand it for the life of me.
Speaker 2:Um, it's just like where I spend most of my time. It just doesn't make sense like I mean, maybe some of the early art box collections, maybe, you know like, like I said, squiggles make sense, right, like punks make sense, like those are kind of go both hand in hand with collectible and art. You know it's uh, they they spend a little bit of time in both worlds. So thank you for breaking that down. Um, that to me made a lot of sense. Um to like not only hear, like how g money you know did his, but also how, like literally how you're doing yours currently, and I think that, yeah, I don't know. I feel like that's the best way to learn is people like listening to people's experience.
Speaker 1:so thank you for um, for sharing that, of course, and you know, I was gonna say like this, this I don't know if this is like proven out, like I mean, like my point is like the research I've done around, this is actually like very minimal, like I think this is just kind of like my take on NFT collateral.
Speaker 1:I think NFT finance and the types of loans and interest rates and LTVs that people get are very indicative of how strong an NFT collection is, whether that is like literally the blue chips are punks, squiggles, autoglyphs and like I think those are like the three main ones. But then, you know, all of those collections will have lower interest rates, pretty decent LTVs and longer loan durations, and I think, like even outside of NFT finance, they're considered blue chip NFTs, while, you know, like something like a little pudgy, as much as I love it, like I think my latest loan was at like 36% interest for 45 days, okay-ish LTV. Well, I mean, the hedge was pretty good, but it's like one of those things that it's like okay. That signals to me strength. It signals to me that hey, there are lenders that are willing to give me money against this asset, and so I think it's just like another way to like measure and kind of keep a pulse on attention.
Speaker 2:And you can make some assumptions based off like yeah, like, whether those, whether the people who are writing liquidity just genuinely think it's strong, whether they may, you know, have, and I like I hate to say this, but like maybe, and crypto, like it's easy to to know, like insider information gets passed around all the time, um, and it's really easy to like point the finger, but like, if you just look at the data on chain, like it's like well, like you can assume a lot of different things, but it's all right there and it's public and it's immutable and that's a really great, that's a great point you just made there, cause I wouldn't have like I think that was kind of swirling in my head literally while you like added that on or like right before you edit it on. So it's cool. I don't know. This is all like. I'm like I feel like I'm like a three-year-old learning about this, because these are just questions that I've had like the entire time.
Speaker 1:Like, oh my God. Well, I'm just happy we're getting to like dig into them and hopefully it's helpful, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and all of 2021, with all the explosion of art blocks, with all these things that just printed money, you know, um, and I just refused to like get into it until I like really understood. It's kind of how I got into nfts. It was like I didn't I didn't buy my first nft to like I at least could like stumble my way into an explanation of how ethereum worked, to like a basic person, you know, like, until I could like maybe not fully understand it. They didn't have to to like get it, but like, if I could, if I could regurgitate a sentence you know about it, about like how I thought it worked. That was good enough for me, you know.
Speaker 1:I think that's you being responsible, like I know, as like the market continues to pick up and trading volume is crazy. There's like jokes made about like eight first, ask questions later, and like there's definitely a time and a place for like that kind of attitude and mentality. But I think like, ultimately, if you're spending money in this space isn't especially if you're new to this space ideally you're not spending that money without having just like even just like a basic grasp what the?
Speaker 1:fuck, you're spending money on, you know yes I think that eight first ask questions later.
Speaker 2:We're not here yet, but I I feel like by the end, at some point in 2024, maybe 2025, we will be there.
Speaker 1:But not, I don't know those, those solana pre-sales, I mean now ask questions later.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'll just be clear with you. Like my, I had a. I've been sober for a little over a decade and that was my. There's a reason why I'm sober because I've really tested out the eight first. Ask questions later and I'll let you fill in the blanks of like you know, without me spelling that out, what that looked like, it was like that was the way I lived my life. So I think there's a little bit of me that's like, okay, we've been there, we've done that, we know how that goes. Like, um, we're not gonna do that anymore. Um, and while it was fun, um, for a time, it's not really anymore. And it was not. It never ended. It never ended. Well, is what is the point?
Speaker 1:I mean honestly, for most people it doesn't end well. No, like you're right, you're right, like there are two, there are winners and there will be times that you win, but, um, definitely don't. Don't fall into the whole. Like grass is greener on the other side, uh, trap no, it's not.
Speaker 2:And like with me I've really kind of I don't really have as much capital to deploy and kind of like the meme coin season, the shitter season. It's been really hard for me to be sidelined for most of it, but like the way I look, because the times I wasn't sidelined, like I got into this headspace where it was like I would forget to do basic things around the house, like I wouldn't, even, like my garage door was left open for 24 hours, you know, like just because I was just so, like something happens in my brain that chemically changes during this time of year. You know, and it's like I think part of it's also just knowing yourself. You know, and like how you operate and how you function and how you like to make money, kind of like what we were talking about earlier, of like what you want to do, like do you want to be a founder, do you want to be like number two or three? Or like do you want to be like just the media person? Do you want to position yourself?
Speaker 2:It's the same thing with this like knowing, like your spending habits and knowing who you are, knowing how you want to make money. There's so many fucking opportunities to make money here. Um, it's just usually not always the one on the timeline. Yeah, Exactly, speaking of places, you're spending most of your time. A lot of your content is focused on blast and I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about that a little bit. In a world where L2s are clearly here to stay, it feels like, especially after 2021, mania and into 2022, it's just unless it's like again, like a blue chip collection or like a piece of art, I just can't see people spending, you know, thousands of dollars in gas fees.
Speaker 1:Who knows, we may get there Like we may, but I mean, it depends on how rich everyone who is currently here gets between now and like.
Speaker 2:Pete Gaspi season. Yeah, totally so like out of all the L2s that are available. We have, like you know, arbitrum, we have, optimism, we have you know, now Bass is making a pretty nice little like footprint out there and we have Blast Out of all of them, and I'm sure there's a lot more. Why did you, like what really makes you so curious about Blast over kind of a lot of the other L2s that have maybe been out for a while?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so. I think this is a few things I think. Number one we saw Blur come out. So for those of you guys who don't know, blur is one of the. It's not one of the. It's like the primary NFT trading marketplace. On ETH, mainnet, like came out, stole a ton of market share from OpenSea and just like that was wild.
Speaker 1:Yeah, destroying the competition. Yeah, blur to date has, knock on wood, has had like no exploits, no vulnerabilities, and I think that speaks volumes to the ability that the team has to execute very hard things on a technical level, like literally. It was the first marketplace where we saw a lot of features get deployed that all of these NFT traders had been asking for. Like I don't trade NFTs, I like fall in love with the picture and then I'll back hold to zero. This is why I also like lending is because I have like a much easier time being like oh, let me take a loan against it, versus like I'm going to list it to sell.
Speaker 2:I like that Okay.
Speaker 1:So there was like I like that, okay. So there was like. There was that like I think when we look at the builders in the space, you know, not really fangirling, I don't know how you feel about this but I also just feel like Pac-Man is probably one of the top 10 most influential builders when it comes to like shaping the future of what, like crypto and blockchain could look like. Um, so I think that those two aspects, just for like context, were incredibly exciting to me. Um, we also saw how much money people made from like the blur airdrop and blur farming. So it's like we know that they know how to do incentives that you know work, um, so that's like one aspect of it. The second aspect was he came out and said we're going to make a chain where if you have Ethereum or stable coins on it, it's natively earning yield, and like that's just really fucking cool. Like you were talking earlier about how, like all traditional finance guys care about is like oh, staking.
Speaker 1:I can stake this and earn yield. And so now to have an L2, where that is like built in and that is like the primary selling point and feature of the chain and the ecosystem, is super exciting. Because now you have all of these other builders, whether that's Wasabi, metastreet and a bunch of others that are coming on, and it's like how can we take advantage of this? Like how can we help people earn even more yield on top of this? And then it's like also, at the same time, it's like how can we rethink through how we've like traditionally done? Like NFT mints, like one of the ideas that I was reading in, like the documentation for Blast, was like could we have an NFT mint where the cost to mint is the yield? Like people deposit, you know, 0.1 ETH and like in order to qualify for the mint, you have to have like 0.1 ETH locked up for 10 days and then you get refunded that 0.1 ETH and then your yield is what pays for your mint.
Speaker 1:Like that's pretty cool and so all of a sudden. Now there's this L2 where you know, I could just tell my mom like mom, we're going to open up a MetaMask account for you and we're just going to leave some ETH in here and we're going to see what happens. That ETH is natively earning yield. I don't need to tell her to go connect her wallet to anything.
Speaker 1:She can, just it just becomes like a high yield savings account that you can fuck around with. You know what I mean and I think like that is really compelling. So just from like a sheer, like me being kind of a nerd and fascinated by this stuff, like that's what's made me the most excited about Blast. And then the other part, too, is like I wasn't. Like I wasn't. I might have been here, I don't know, but I wasn't paying attention when, like, arbitrum and Optimism came out and it's like wait, there's this new L2 that I think has some of the most compelling tech features you could possibly have and that is attracting some of the most talented builders that I've opportunity. That comes around once every now and then, because I feel like there are a ton of L2s. Oh my God, I'd go to VC cocktail hours and they're giggling about do we really need another L2? Right.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's like Blast offered something different and I think it has the power to stay.
Speaker 1:I think it has the power to capture market share and mind share and it already has for the most part. Like I'm seeing, in the same way that you are, like I'm not really into the finance stuff, but like more the gen art, the NFT side, the collector side, has been where I have been. A lot of my friends that are also kind of in that same ecosystem as you have bridged funds over to Blast because they're like oh well, why not? I earn yield and I'm getting some points and maybe I get a nice airdrop in May. So it's kind of like all of those reasons combined just made it seem really obvious. I think like the other L2s that I'm really excited about is honestly base, because I think just like the natural connection to Coinbase and like having majority of like US consumers onboarded in Coinbase, coinbase um, if they're gonna do defy stuff, probably easiest thing for them to do would just be coinbase wallet transfer to defy and like that's natively set on the base chain.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, that very long-winded answer sorry, no, no, no, no, no, that's I, I wanted that I, I I because you've literally gone full, send into blast and like that's what I was hoping for and I was like, okay, definitely wanted to to get your thoughts on that, on why. Because I think the way I've looked at it, um, it's just I, I look at how many different things there are now and now that attention's things are getting a little frothy again and like people are like getting silly again, it's really hard to like know, like it's really hard to just like pick something and like learn about it and research it, because it's just you feel like you're going to miss out on an opportunity. Um, elsewhere, if you like choose to put your attention on one way, um, I guess the that was what I was kind of looking for, because I see, I see it with base. It's like you can literally buy eth or usdc on bay on on coinbase and literally just send it to base like right from the app and it'll just like auto convert it and like that is just extremely fucking bullish. I guess the thing with Blast that was like kind of like holding me back is like looking at the numbers and not really understanding how finance works.
Speaker 2:The one thing, or like just kind of, yeah, the one thing I bought I have learned from a lot of my friends that I look up to here is like if you don't understand where the yield is coming from, you are the yield. And like seeing like a, a 15%, please, please, please, please, shatter, please, shatter this. I'm so excited because, like, I see like 15 yield and I'm like, okay, we saw 20 with tara luna and like we all know how that went um. So like I think there's just some ptsd with like ridiculously high interest rates that like aren't maybe what most consider normal or kind of like I would say like under 10, you know, is like kind of like a safe zone, but like seeing that just on the, on a stable coin. That's why I'm like I don't know man, like pac-man is the king of incentives, you know.
Speaker 2:Like one could argue because like again I'm in the art side, I'm gonna let you talk here for because I know you have some, I know you're, I know you cooked um. But like in the art side he's also viewed a lot differently than he is maybe on the NFT side is that he destroyed royalties. He's just the Ponzi guy. It's essentially destroyed one half of the culture here. And so now, while I don't fully believe that, I feel like he's just building the product that people wanted anyway, and that's where, if it wasn't him, it would have been someone else, because the market wants what the market wants and this drive, so I.
Speaker 2:But it's hard to when you hear so much of that. It's kind of hard to like stick your head above ground again, if you know what I mean. Um to like see another perspective, or to like hear another perspective of like how someone else, another participant, maybe in a different side of the industry, views him, or like what he's built. But I will say, like what he, like he is, he has built something that has become the meta that people like the, the amount of mindshare, market share that he took, or him and his team took, and the amount of time that he took it in. It's hard to argue um, yeah, for good, or you know, like, we'll see how this all plays out, but like that's impressive. Um, so yeah, it just there.
Speaker 2:There was some like, definitely some like road blocks for me. And guess what, though, like in the, in the nature, in the spirit of fucking around and finding out. I did bridge over to blast in the very beginning, you know. So I do have 0.05. That's just sitting there, um, so it is there. I'm not fully against it, like I just I bridged an amount that I was okay with, like never seeing again and just like seeing how this goes, um, and so here we are. We may, this may be where the doors fly open and I figure it the fuck out, and we figure out how to do it.
Speaker 1:So please cook, tell me, yeah, yeah, oh well, um, before I lose it, I I hear this in a group chat the other day when yuga was announcing their royalties with magic, eden and and like I get the whole like Pac-Man, destroyed royalties take.
Speaker 1:But at the same time I'm kind of like wasn't the whole point of royalties was like pay individual creators and like actual artists Like I want to pay, I am happy to pay royalties on those NFTs. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to pay. Nor do I want to pay royalties to a unicorn startup that's worth over a billion dollars according to their last raise. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:So Fair, Fair point. And I feel like most of those NFTs don't even trade on Blur. To begin with. They're like you're still buying it from like OpenSea, etc. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah so.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to throw that out there about royalties, but I'm so glad you brought up where the fuck does the sealed come from, specifically the 15% on stable coins, because I saw that that put up a flag for me and I kid you not, I think I spent like two whole days trying to figure it out and deep dive into it. I'm like in people's DMs, I'm like looking at charts and I'm like asking people way smarter than me like what the fuck is happening? Right, right, so the native yield on Blast, the 4% yield on ETH, comes from staked ETH. That's through.
Speaker 2:Lido, that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1:That's through LIDO as of right now, which is great. Could change in the future, who knows? There's so much like restaking stuff happening, yeah, but now 15%. It used to be 5%, but the yield on USDB, which is the native blast stablecoin, actually comes from MakerDAO. So I knew what Maker was, but I did not really know all of the intricacies and whatnot of how it worked.
Speaker 1:But basically, if you didn't know, makerdao is like the decentralized protocol and DAO that is in charge of DAI, which is a stablecoin, and what makes DAI distinctly unique from any other stablecoin in the market is it's actually not backed by fiat, it's not backed by US dollars sitting in a bank, but rather, if you had Bitcoin, if you had Bitcoin, eth, even USDC that you wanted to borrow against, so like you basically deposit crypto assets or tokenized T-bills into MakerDAO and then you're able to borrow DAI, so your DAI is minted once you put down this collateral.
Speaker 1:So, as a result, dai ends up actually being backed by this surplus of collateral that everyone has put up. So that's how DAI is made, and this is pretty important because what happened was the market sentiment. Obviously over the past couple of weeks has changed. People are incredibly bullish and I'm like not shitting you when said I literally talked to everyone who is like way smarter than there's DAI right on one hand, and on the other hand there's USDC. If you go to any lending platform majority of them the cost to borrow USDC you're seeing interest rates anywhere from like 26% upwards of 100%.
Speaker 2:Holy shit.
Speaker 1:Especially on perps platforms, like there are people who are like trying to leverage long or leverage short things and they're paying over 100% to borrow the USDC to do these leverage trades. So, basically, so right the market on Wow like deposit USDC to MakerDAO, borrow DAI, go sell that DAI for USDC again and then go lend out that USDC, and it basically just created like this little loop and DAI. I think this is really important to note. Like I mentioned earlier, dai is backed by the surplus of crypto collateral that has been put up and things like tokenized T-bills, and it has continued to remain fairly well over collateralized. But within the reserves that they have their stablecoin reserves, like USDC reserves just kept going down and so they just realized they're like fuck, people are kind of taking advantage of this. And so they just realized they're like fuck, people are kind of like taking advantage of this.
Speaker 1:We need to bring our rates in line with the market. So they passed this emergency governance proposal that came out closer to the beginning of March. That was like hey, we're going to increase our they call it the die stability fee to 15% and the stability fee is basically just the interest rate that people pay to borrow, or they increased it to 16%, sorry. And then that stability fee funds something that's called the die savings rate and they increase the die savings rate to 15% and they increased the DAI savings rate to 15%, and that 15% is where the native yield comes from for USDV on Blast. So it's more like it's reminiscent of Terra, because DAI is like an algorithmic stable coin, but at the same time, it should be said that, like it's a completely different design than how Terra was done and it's also the most battle-tested algorithmic stablecoin.
Speaker 1:So in the future, that 15% could totally change. It really just depends on where we are in the market and what market demands are. I definitely think. Kind of just something to be on alert and aware about, especially if, like, the market randomly turns incredibly like bearish and then we just see like a cascade of liquidations. That's for sure going to potentially be scary. But you are not the yield fun fact, but that is where the yield comes from.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you could you know. Okay, so you could you know. So you heard it here. You heard it here potentially for the first time.
Speaker 2:Um, is that jen just explained where the fuck the yield came from, and you're not it. Um, that, no, it's super helpful, like I I, because I, I, like you, I know of die, I've seen die before and like I've heard from random bits of podcasts and things that I've listened to and tweets that I've seen, about the complexities of die and how long it's been around. Like there, it's kind of hard to fade it at this point, like that's all I know about die. I have no fucking clue how it worked until you you know, like I got a brief understanding right there. Um, uh, and and I'll probably noodle on it some more but that's incredibly helpful um, so that's really interesting. And like it's like, okay, the 15 doesn't feel like it's forever, because I feel like the way it was marketed with teraluna was like it's 20 forever, like it was like this, almost. Like they're trying to like guarantee this fucking absurd interest rate.
Speaker 1:Well, and also like part of I, for what was it?
Speaker 1:terra usd was their stable coin like that was propped up by mostly the terra token itself which like made no sense, whereas like die, on the other hand, is like propped up literally by bitcoin eth staked, eth, usdc again tokenized, fucking t-bills. You know what I mean. It's a little bit better than like oh, we actually made another coin that is speculative, that we've assigned value to, and this is propping up the price of DAI Like that's. You know what I mean? It's not the case.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, no, that makes a lot of sense because, like I know, I didn't lose anything with Terraluna. I was just. I was too stupid to even like, I just didn't understand any of it. So I'm like you know what.
Speaker 1:I don't have enough capital you just got whiplashed around like the rest of us, Like what is happening.
Speaker 2:That one I was happy to be sidelined on. Like I was like okay, that one. After seeing the rise and fall of it I was like totally okay with was sitting that one out. That was I'm sure I missed out on some opportunity, but the reality is I probably wasn't and I probably would have like gotten fucked because I would have just seen only the opportunity but not how this could go wrong and like not understanding where this shit came from. Just I, yeah. So anyway, super, super helpful. You may turn me into a blast bull by the end of this, um so I go?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but let's go, I'm here for it all I know is that I have eth on there and I did try to take it out at a certain point and saw there was like a 14 day withdrawal period. I'm like you know what we're not going to try that, we're just going to keep in the ecosystem and we're going to figure it the fuck out um so I do want to say there is, if you ever do need that liquidity, um, there are defy bridges like protocol bridges that you can use.
Speaker 2:That will bridge it for way cheaper and much faster okay, all right, that actually is helpful, but I think I've already made my decision that, like I still like I don't need it right now, but we'll, we'll figure it out. Um, well, cool, so we are coming up on. Well, no, we have literally passed an hour and a half, so I'm pretty good with like wrapping it up here, but I really appreciate like all of the things that we talked about. I think we ran the gamut on your story and the space and your interests and things that I didn't fucking know and got to ask like left curve questions on that I've been wanting to ask for a long time, you know and that's again one of the reasons like I've always just enjoyed your content is like you have this ability to take complex topics, like things that most people are scared about, and make them into like digestible, like things that people can understand. So I just want to like double down and like say thank you for doing that with me for like an hour and a half.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that, oh my God. Well, thank you for like having me and asking me questions. I really like this was a super fun conversation. I think, like as long as you found it helpful, that's like all that really matters to me, and hopefully the folks that are listening in found it helpful because, like guys like I know this, this stuff is fucking crazy. For a lack of better words, like I don't know how else to say it and like excuse the profanity, but it's like we exist in such an insane space and I and I totally get how it's overwhelming and it sometimes feels like too much, because I'm right there with you Like I am still by no means an expert, I am still fucking around and finding out, and so like just the fact that you value how I break things down and what I had to share here just means the world. So thank you for that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely and and I guess we'll wrap it up with, like with one other thing here I know we're going to be doing some exciting stuff in New York. This will definitely come out after those those exciting things. So I would love to maybe know, you know with you, or Remant Reality, like what's kind of on the horizon for you, like what's you know? Is it, you know, just diving deeper into the L2 ecosystem, into Blast? Is there any new kind of projects or things that you're working on? We'd love to know that, yeah.
Speaker 1:So Remit Reality is kind of like the brand that Dalton or War Daddy Capital and I created to kind of house all of our content under because we have so many interests, like obviously for both of us like 75% of our attention and like time spent is definitely on the blast ecosystem.
Speaker 1:But we're incredibly excited about Solano, we're incredibly excited about Bitcoin, defi, things like Warpcaster on base, and so, like, remint is the brand that houses both of our content and we also do like a weekly video podcast where we cover all of these things and it's nice because it's also a force function for us to make sure we stay on top of our research. I love that. So, really like for us we're just going to be heads down trying to put out as much banger video content as we can. That's like helpful and like just being you know more in that like growth mindset of like how can we take some of these systems that we've created for our own content creation process and like really scale that, because you know right now, like him and I do everything and like edit all of my own videos and it's just like we we just want to get it to a point where you know I'm hopefully not staying up till two 30 in the morning editing my own video, yep.
Speaker 2:I.
Speaker 1:I relate to that more than you know you know I mean, yeah, you're a man of many hats, so I bet you do.
Speaker 2:Yes, there's a lot of things that you just make happen because it needs to happen and there's no one else to make it happen but you, and that's just the nature of it. So, yeah, I definitely empathize with that hustle and love what you guys are doing there, so I think it's a good spot to wrap it up. Yeah, so I think it's a good spot to wrap it up. Yeah, so just hang out for a little bit. We're gonna let this thing finish uploading and then we'll do a little sign off, but I hope you have a great rest of your day, jen let's go.
Speaker 1:Thank you for having me again you got it you.